979 Messages
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29.1K Points
Request that the keywords "husband" and "wife" be protected from deletion
My submissions of the keywords husband and wife were approved for several titles, but then quickly after deleted by another contributor. Here are a few of the submission numbers.
#220912-235601-191000
#220912-080032-875000
#220911-100146-519000
#220906-221549-922000
#220908-033223-660000
#220908-072851-320000
#220910-025543-858000
#220908-025558-429000 (14 other keywords were deleted from this one)
I request the keywords "husband" and "wife" be protected from deletion unless reviewed by a staffer.
jay_spirit
979 Messages
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29.1K Points
2 years ago
Here are the 16 keywords removed from the following submission.
#220908-025558-429000
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keyword_expert
2.7K Messages
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47K Points
2 years ago
I noticed this too a couple days ago, and I actually joined in, but for a very limited purpose. What I did was to replace the keyword "husband" with "husband-wife-relationship" on about 100 to 125 titles where "husband-wife-relationship" was the better keyword than "husband."
Another contributor got the process started and deleted "husband" from another couple hundred titles at least. That other contributor deleted your other keywords.
I have my suspicions as to who started deleting "husband" (and who deleted your other keywords), but I will let that person speak on their own. I promise it was not me.
With all that said, I do see the logic in using "husband-wife-relationship" instead of "husband" (or "husband" and "wife" on the same title), and I actually support this. I consider this valid keyword cleanup.
The same could probably be said of some of your keywords on your list. For example, "mother-son-relationship" should be used instead of "mother" and "son" on the same title. And "stepfather-stepson-relationship" instead of "stepson" and "stepfather." And "ex-husband-ex-wife-relationship" is better than "ex-husband."
As for "stepson-kills-stepfather" and "killing-one's-stepfather," I can't even think of a reason why anyone would have wanted to delete those perfectly appropriate keywords.
I can give you some more clues as to who I think is doing this mass manual editing. The same contributor is also deleting the keyword "cigarette" from titles that have the "cigarette-smoking" keyword.
And one other clue: the contributor seems to favor "17-year-old-teenage-boy" over "17-year-old-boy." Apparently this contributor does not even realize (or does not care) that "17" (i.e., "seventeen") inherently includes the word "teen." The keyword "17-year-old-teenage-boy" is a tautology, similar to "atm-machine."
17-year-old-boy (92 titles)
17-year-old-teenage-boy (17 titles)
Do you mind disclosing which title these keywords were associated with? You can probably check what other edits were made to the keywords on that title, or I could help with that.
For example, was "17-year-old-boy" in fact replaced with ""17-year-old-teenage-boy" on that title? If so, then I definitely know who made the edits, but again, I will let that person come forward on their own.
I would hope the contributor would at least try to explain why they believe "17-year-old-teenage-boy" is a better keyword, and whether they care that it's a tautology.
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jay_spirit
979 Messages
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29.1K Points
2 years ago
The keywords have been deleted for a third time.
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jay_spirit
979 Messages
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29.1K Points
2 years ago
Yesterday I searched for all the titles I rated that had the keyword amnesia in it. I was looking for a particular movie and could not remember the title or any cast member.
I couldn't find it. It was not on the list of movies I had seen.
Later, I was able to find it via Google. The title was Somewhere in the Night (1946).
Someone removed keyword amnesia from it. Why? Probably because it already had the keyword amnesiac-war-veteran.
I have never found anything I was looking for by using a keyword search.
And here's why. Contributors delete keywords they consider redundant. Because of this, the keyword search is useless.
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keyword_expert
2.7K Messages
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47K Points
2 years ago
Our fellow contributor continues to be busy.
The keyword "husband" is back down to 1 title (after I saw that you had boosted it to about 40 titles for the third time).
https://www.imdb.com/search/title/?keywords=husband
Also, the keyword "wife" is currently being deleted in earnest. It is currently down to 586 titles.
https://www.imdb.com/search/title/?keywords=wife
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keyword_expert
2.7K Messages
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47K Points
2 years ago
@jay_spirit
Given all the recent drama about changing the keywords "husband" and "wife" on titles to "husband-wife-relationship," are you okay with changing the keyword "family" to "family-relationships?"
(By the way, it may have been that very suggestion involving "family-relationships" that triggered the idea to change "husband" and "wife" to "husband-wife-relationship.")
(edited)
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keyword_expert
2.7K Messages
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47K Points
2 years ago
I just discovered that the fellow contributor we have been discussing has recently made a couple other mass keyword edits:
As we have discussed in this thread, "killing" is broader than "murder." These are not the same thing. There is nothing wrong with having both keywords on titles where both keywords apply.
This mass edit is super annoying. It reminds me of the previous attempts to eliminate "cigarette," "telephone-conversation," and other keywords. But in addition to being annoying, this mass edit is resulting in inaccurate keywords on IMDb. A knock at the door is a very different concept from knocking on a door; it depends on the viewer's perspective of the knocking. In a horror movie, when the viewer is shown the perspective from inside a house and there is a creepy or mysterious "knock-at-the-door," without showing who is doing the knocking, you better believe that's a major difference from showing a character from the outside "knocking-on-a-door." Mass merging one of these distinct keywords into the other is keyword negligence at best and keyword vandalism at worst.
If the contributor is reading this, I wish he would stop making pointless, counterproductive, inaccurate keyword edits like this.
(edited)
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jay_spirit
979 Messages
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29.1K Points
2 years ago
@keyword_expert
I believe the contributor in question has long had a preference for a over the in all cases, all the time, in all contexts. All relevant keywords must be altered to reflect this preference.
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keyword_expert
2.7K Messages
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47K Points
2 years ago
One other change the contributor in question has been making lately is to merge "husband-leaves-wife," "wife-leaves-husband," "husband-leaves-family," etc. into "husband-leaves-his-wife," etc. In other words, merging from the old newspaper style into the new proper grammar style. I actually support this set of changes.
It's quite interesting how one strong-willed individual can reshape the keywords like this, often completely behind the scenes. Often nobody even notices until years later (if at all). I believe that is exactly what was going on with keywords like "cigarette" and "telephone-conversation" until we raised it on the forum. I also suspect that the same had been happening with "knock-at-the-door." All it would take is some "cleanup" of these keywords once or twice a year, and none would be the wiser. It really gives the false appearance that these specific keywords are the product of the community, when in fact nothing could be further from the truth.
Again, I often support this contributor's changes. I just wish there could be a more honest and open community discussion about the changes, ideally before the fact.
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keyword_expert
2.7K Messages
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47K Points
2 years ago
@jay_spirit
Since you are the resident "murder" and "killing" expert (and I mean that in the best possible way), I invite you to review and comment on this list of proposed keyword mergers:
Duplicate Keywords - List #63 (murder keywords) (Proposals for Permanent Merger and Auto-Conversion)
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keyword_expert
2.7K Messages
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47K Points
2 years ago
I am still uncovering numerous major errors resulting from the mass, manual changing of "kill" keywords to "murder" keywords.
For example, at some point between Nov. 2020 and Apr. 2021, on the title Alien (1979), the keyword "characters-killed-one-by-one" was changed to "characters-murdered-one-by-one." The latter keyword is not accurate for this title. The human characters in this movie are killed by the alien creature, not murdered. Except in rare cases where an alien is subject to and understands the laws of humans, an alien can't murder a human.
It looks like the same exact thing happened with Life (2017), which also involves an alien killing humans, although I am not sure exactly when this happened on this title.
Looks like the same thing happened with The Descent (2015), although the timing on this one is unclear as well. This title features cave creatures killing humans. The killings are not murders.
At some point between Jan. 2017 and Jan. 2021, on the title The Evil Dead (1981), the keywords "boyfriend-kills-girlfriend," "killed-with-an-axe," and "characters-killed-one-by-one" were changed to "boyfriend-murders-girlfriend," "murdered-with-an-axe," and "characters-murdered-one-by-one," respectively. The latter set of keywords are not applicable to this title.
Looks like similar things happened with The Dead Don't Die (2019), Underwater (2020), The Return of the Living Dead (1985), Zombeavers (2014), and those are just the tip of the iceberg. What a mess.
Just so we are all on the same page, it bears repeating that a zombie cannot murder a human, an animal cannot murder a human, a zombified animal cannot murder a human, an alien cannot murder a human, a monster cannot murder a human, etc.
I will try to clean up these errors the best I can, but it's frustrating that they happened in the first place.
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jay_spirit
979 Messages
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29.1K Points
2 years ago
Frustrating indeed.
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bradley_kent
1.3K Messages
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23.1K Points
2 years ago
May have, but don't remember deleting "husband" or "wife" as keywords. I do wonder if they should be deleted and banned entirely. Can one BE a husband without a wife, or husband, and a wife with a husband, or wife? Don't "husband-wife-relationship," "husband-husband-relationship," and "wife-wife-relationship" cover the same info? (There are, of course, "widower" and "widow" AND "divorced-man" and "divorcee," etc., but wonder if there is not too much duplication in keywords?). Same goes for "father," "mother," "son," "daughter," "cousin," "uncle," "aunt," "nephew," "niece," "grandfather," "grandmother," "grandson," granddaughter," "brother," "sister," etc.
Several months ago, tried to convert keywords like "18-year-old-teenage-boy" into "18-year-old-boy." Thought I had done a good job, but apparently not.
Most of the keyword problems discussed seem to be attached to (apparently) student films, short films, short and feature Russian films, short Czech films, etc., which suggests that they are coming from the same sources.
Perhaps I am feeling some guilt on some keyword changes, but I resent the implication that I may have something to do with certain keyword changes when, actually, I had NO participation in those changes, whatsoever. I am tired of being a "whipping boy" as "amother certain contributor," IF you are referring to me. Perhaps I am mistaken, and giving the staff too much credit, but I follow the assumption that, if the contribution of an addition, correction or deletion is "accepted," it should usually be considered "acceptable."
(edited)
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keyword_expert
2.7K Messages
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47K Points
2 years ago
I want to bring @DataOrganizer into the conversation, since in addition to errors with the "characters-murdered-one-by-one" keyword, I am also seeing errors where the "murder-of-a-police-officer" keyword has been added to titles where police officers are killed, but not necessarily murdered.
@DataOrganizer, so that you understand the issue, the main difference between "killed" and "murdered" is that "murdered" is a legal concept that only applies where a human kills another human and commits the legal act of murder, under society's system of laws. In contrast, the word "killed" is much broader and could involve killing in self defense, an animal killing a human, an alien or zombie killing a human, etc.
There is more explained by @jay_spirit in this thread:
Eight keywords I added to a title were accepted and then deleted by a contributor
At the following links, I am finding several titles where the keyword "murder-of-a-police-officer" has been applied, but that keyword is likely incorrect for these titles, and a better keyword would be "police-officer-killed." These are titles where zombies, animals, creatures, monsters, etc. kill the police officer, and since these beings are not capable of murder, the "killed" and "killing" keywords should have been used rather than the "murder" and "murdered" keywords.
Would you be willing to manually change "murder-of-a-police-officer" to "police-officer-killed" on these titles, as appropriate?
To be clear, I'm not suggesting that all of these titles should be changed to "police-officer-killed." This requires looking at each title, case by case, and applying common sense to figure out whether there might have actually been a police officer murdered (not just killed) in the title. And there may indeed be murders of police officers in some of these titles. But when in doubt, it is still okay to apply the keyword "police-officer-killed," because all murders are also killings (but the converse is not true -- not all killings are murders).
Sort by Popularity - Most Popular Movies and TV Shows tagged with keywords "murder-of-a-police-officer", "creature-feature"
Sort by Popularity - Most Popular Movies and TV Shows tagged with keywords "murder-of-a-police-officer", "creature"
Sort by Popularity - Most Popular Movies and TV Shows tagged with keywords "murder-of-a-police-officer", "alien-invasion"
Sort by Popularity - Most Popular Movies and TV Shows tagged with keywords "alien", "murder-of-a-police-officer"
Sort by Popularity - Most Popular Movies and TV Shows tagged with keywords "zombie", "murder-of-a-police-officer"
Sort by Popularity - Most Popular Movies and TV Shows tagged with keywords "monster", "murder-of-a-police-officer"
And along the way, you will likely also see similar "murder" keywords on the same titles that don't seem to fit. Generally speaking, when we are talking about zombie movies, creature features, monster movies, alien invasion movies, etc. it is usually safe to assume that keywords like "murder of a boy" and "murder of a child" should be changed back to "boy killed" and "child killed," respectively.
Over the past few years, somebody (or multiple people) has mass-changed many "killed" keywords to "murder" keywords, which has resulted in a lot of inaccuracies. To fix this, the first step would be changing some of the "murdered" keywords back to "killed" keywords. The links I have provided above should get us a long way toward remedying this problem.
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keyword_expert
2.7K Messages
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47K Points
2 years ago
I am finding still more problems with the mass manual conversions of "kill" keywords to "murder" keywords.
One particularly egregious example involves the keyword "husband-kills-wife." In the third week of September 2022 -- right around the time of this other thread -- the keyword "husband-kills-wife" was entirely eliminated from IMDb on a mass manual basis. But rather than changing the keyword "husband-kills-wife" to "husband-kills-his-wife," the contributor changed every instance of "husband-kills-wife" to "husband-murders-his-wife."
I found a Bing cache of "husband-kills-wife" dated 9/22/2022, showing that this keyword applied to 77 titles at that time, and this capture by the Wayback Machine on May 4, 2022 shows the first 50 of those same 77 titles.
The list of the first 50 titles shows that some of the titles did not involve murder, but rather a variety of other plot situations: mercy killings, a husband killing his wife in self-defense after she was turned into a zombie, a husband possessed by an evil curse who killed his wife against his own free will, etc.
The current numbers tell the story: the "kills" keywords were all but eliminated in favor of the "murders" keywords, in many cases resulting in inaccuracies:
husband-kills-his-wife (10 titles)
husband-murders-his-wife (428 titles)
husband-murders-wife (9 titles)
The saddest thing about this: before this mess occurred in September 2022, I was already planning to include "husband-kills-wife" (to be merged into "husband-kills-his-wife") and "husband-murders-wife" (to be merged into "husband-murders-his-wife") in a future list of duplicate keywords to be merged by IMDb staff. Instead, the determined contributor decided to manually change all these keywords on his own, without any prior public discussion.
I will do what I can to try to clean up this mess as well. If anyone else spots any titles at this link where "kills" should have been used instead of "murders," please feel free to make your own corrections.
https://web.archive.org/web/20220504215651/https://www.imdb.com/search/keyword/?keywords=husband-kills-wife
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