DataOrganizer's profile

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490 Points

Wed, Jun 9, 2021 12:27 AM

In Progress

Keyword "Police-Officer" and Gender-Versions: multiple keywords with same meaning, hundreds of combinations

Dear Community,
according to my post months ago: Link, i inbetween startet to change these keywords to a standard for better search results, because i had only positive feedback on my linked post.
 
policewoman, female cop and patrolwoman now are nearly all female-police-officer - but they surely will always be used in small numbers again.
cop is on the way to change to police-officer, policeman and patrolman are on the way to male-police-officer.

By the way i add the keywords "police" or/and "police-officer", where it was missing.

Some combinated keywords i have already startet to change and unite, too - but far more i had not had time for.

Some genre typical keywords like "good cop bad cop" i will leave.

I think there are many months of work before me, cause these many hours of typing and clicking are very exhausting and the energy that I had at the beginning of this idea has changed into stressful work that slows me down. I underestimated the number of titles and the many keyword-combinations.

I started with female-police-officer, because i liked to use this keyword to pay more attention to women.

 
My questions here are something else:

1) Difference between police-officer and police-detective.
As far as i could research in different countries of the world and even in states of the usa, officers and detectives have not always the same meaning.
Even police officers themselves seem not always to be aware of this and are wondering sometimes about the title of their colleagues from different states.
For people not involved in police-work it seems nearly impossible to differentiate police-officer and police-detective accurately.
The only difference many can think of is, a police-officer might be someone with a uniform, a police-detective someone in plain-clothes.
But that seems not always to be right if i have understood this right.
Probaply most people will say to a person of police "Police Officer" than "Police Detective".

The keyword policeman was set in many very old movies and maybe often in what is more similar to a plain-clothed person of police.
They also could have set cop.
Sometimes there were other keywords related to police, like police-station, motorcycle-policeman, traffic-cop or something like this,
so that it was obvious, the movie includes a uniformed person of police.

Do you think it would be good to differentiate between police-officer and police-detective, or do you think if someone searches for police-movies with male or female persons of police, it is not that important and cannot be accurate to differentiate?

2) Correcting or adding keywords

After some time i startet to thinking about why not just adding keywords to titles, instead of correcting the old keywords.
This would have been another option, but my work was too far advanced to know, what i already had changed.

Do you think the better way would have been to add keywords or is it fine this way, so that some keywords have been or will be gone?

Please share your thoughts about this.

Thank you very much.

Accepted Solution

8.2K Messages

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186.3K Points

Il y a 1 a

I did recall older thread addressing these issues, but I'm only finding out right now that it was created by the same person as this one, as I simply didn't remember the author's handle. I wish Bradley Kent had noticed that thread back when it was fresh; and that's assuming he didn't, as it is quite possible he wrote a message that was nested under a post made by somebody who vanished from the forum, meaning that the whole subthread would be missing. I stated before that "policeman" is supposed to be redirected to "male-police-officer", with "policewoman" supposed to be redirected to "female-police-officer", but now that I think about it, this isn't an established guideline, simply a prospective policy or at the very least a possible good idea. I don't know for actual fact that the particular keywords are "supposed to be" redirected, at this time.

26 Messages

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490 Points

Yes, i wish it could have been discussed in my older post, too - that would have saved me a lot of work. But it is how it is.

I understand your point of view (and bradley kent's) and will leave it this way and do not change these keywords anymore. Trying to generalize things seems not to be the best way in this complex topic.

Thank you both very much for your thoughts.

(edited)

8.2K Messages

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186.3K Points

Il y a 1 a

Of keywords, "policeman" is supposed to be redirected to "male-police-officer", and "policewoman" is supposed to be redirected to "female-police-officer". Yes, it is important to differentiate between "police officer" and "police detective", as the latter carries the connotation of a police force member who oversees investigations that may take longer than a day's time to solve. The detective might even be a private contractor deputized and empowered to serve the public trust. Also, often detectives don't wear any kind of uniform while doing their jobs, and may even be expected to wear formal attire or whatever casual attire the common folk do. While police officers at the lowest rank in their department may be participants of  investigations, they typically do not lead investigations; unless (1) the specific investigation was opened by the officer in the first place, (2) the officer has the qualifications and resources to attempt to solve the corresponding crime on his/her own in a timely manner, and (3) the officer won't have any other duties. As for "cop" (short for "copper"), that's the colloquial umbrella term to describe somebody empowered by law and in the name of the law to physically seize a person or a thing, for rendering onto a court of law or into an evidence store under the responsibility of a public institution. For the most part, the term is reserved for local law enforcement (like city police, sheriffs and sheriffs' deputies), State troopers, State rangers and State police, or provincial law enforcement, rarely used to refer to prosecuting attorneys, bounty hunters, tow truck operators, minutemen, federal marshals or federal agents, even though the United States government doth command plenty of seizing.

26 Messages

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490 Points

Thank you for your very informative answer.
This i would have needed months ago.
It means i will stop changing these keywords, cause i do not have the knowledge to choose the right keyword.
We will have to wait till someone cares about.
There could be already hundreds of wrong keywords for both, male and female police officer.
Do you think it could be helpful for users who are not experienced in this many differences, to just add the terms (male/female) police-officer?  

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186.3K Points

I was thinking about what I stated before about detectives, and one more of the things that stands out about them is how they are almost never part of the regular emergency response apparatus, likewise rarely part of the tactical response apparatus.

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There's big problem with this.  Unlike some countries, in the USA, not all policemen or policewomen are police officers!  Police officer is a higher rank than policeman and policewoman.  Converting the last two into police-officer may be providing misinformation and messing with official police rankings and job titles and descriptions -- and salaries!. You run the risk of mistakenly demoting or promoting someone.

And, a patrolman is different from a policeman.  Not all policemen are detectives. (That is a different rank and job assignment,  too.) And THEN there are state troopers, again, a different job.  PRIVATE detectives are usually not (but may be) employed by a municipality or state, but now we even have PRIVATE police. To try and combine all of these is madness.  

You need to listen to the words and look at the images in each and every title to determine the specific designation.  If, for examples, a character is designated as a carbiniere, or a bobby,  or military police, etc., that is what the keyword should be.

In the very early days of IMDb, "cop" was supposedly banned in favor of policeman and/or policewoman, although (here we go again with exceptions) "cop-killer" was considered a valid keyword.  Now, I see "cop" a lot, however.

As I have learned the hard way, combining keywords is usually not the best path to follow.

I understand the desire to generalize and make things simpler, but you run the huge risk of destroying the truth.  If you need to do this, the best word would probably just be "police," even thought it is plural.  And, even then, the particular kind(s) of "police" (police-cadet, police-rookie, policeman, policewoman, police-officer, police-sergeant, police-lieutenant, police-captain, chief-of-police, police-commissioner, sheriff, deputy-sheriff, posse, etc.) should also be listed.

(edited)

26 Messages

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490 Points

Thank you for your informative answer.

Yes, it should be a simplification for users who are not very familiar with these many differences - like me.

As i answered to jeorj_euler, there might be already hundreds of wrong keywords for both male and female police officers.

Do you think it could be helpful for users who are not experienced in this many differences, to just add the terms (male/female) police-officer?  

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186.3K Points

I've no knowledge of the words "policeman" and "policewoman" being used to refer to anybody other than an actual police officer, and these words are somewhat colloquial since police departments don't refer to anybody in their employ as "policeman" or "policewoman", not even contractors. In terms of personnel bearing the police badge, the lowest rank in a police force is "police officer". There may be some other employees of the department, but any such employee who lacks a police badge is not a police officer, and no police officer answers to him or her in the context of law enforcement work. (The police commissioner is probably not considered an employee of the department that he or she oversees, like how the Secretary of the Navy is not a member of the Navy.) I'm not sure about police academies, but I'd imagine that they only train and certify police cadets, just as a police explorer program only certifies police explorers (who are minors with no special responsibilities imposed upon them by a government, likewise no special powers granted thereby, only knowledge and experience). We don't refer to police cadets as "polceman" or "policewoman", and we don't refer to police explorers in that way. Of course, with fifty States in the union that be the United States, anything is possible in terms of slight variations of customs and terminology. Most of the States contain counties (just like England), but Louisiana has parishes (just like France) instead, and Alaska has neither. Be the municipality a county or a parish, it is at that level of jurisdiction guarded by a force commanded by a sheriff, a "shire reeve". Alaska has no sheriffs, though. Local law enforcement there is facilitated and organized in slightly different way from the rest of the States. There isn't really a term "police rookie", as this invariably refers to a rookie police officer, one who is either new to having a police badge altogether, or new to working in a particular specialty under the umbrella of law enforcement. Such is borderline colloquial and better known even more colloquially as "rookie cop".

26 Messages

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490 Points

I agree jeorj_euler.
I think it should be more about simplification - not accuracy.
A movie-database cannot be something like a dictionary or wikipedia and most people just cannot know all these differences in for example police-ranks. 
They just search terms and want to watch a movie.
So i believe it would be helpful to think of this from the perspective of an outsider - not a police-member.
Surely there are more experienced users who may search for an exact rank and want to watch exactly that. But i think this is a minority. 

A simple example to show the problem of too much accuracy (i tried this keyword search 1 minute ago):
 
You search for a female police officer and singing (2 keywords search). 
I believe nobody wants to search for all single police ranks (from which some might be unknown). This might be many keywords to search instead of one or two.
A search with just the keyword police and singing is not the same - cause then it could be both - male and female.
female-police-officer + singing : 58 results
police + singing : 916 results
Surely you cannot know, if the keyword singing is related to the female-officer or someone else, but it is far more simple to search 1 or 2 short result lists, then many more or a very long result list.

So in my opinion a general keyword to differ male and female police members should not be describe an exact rank, but should be a term everybody just understands. 
Male and female police officers are terms everybody understands immediately - even if it is not the exact description.
Maybe a better description then can be found in the cast.
In addition to the general term there could be keywords of exact ranks or descriptions, too - and who knows and searches these will find them, too. 

(edited)

8.2K Messages

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186.3K Points

Well, we go by the content of the movies. If a character is identified as police sergeant, then we know that a "police-sergeant" can and ought to be attached as a keyword. We also know that most police departments will have their police sergeants' uniforms bear three chevrons on each shirt/jacket/coat arm, much like the military, meaning that police corporal uniforms have two chevrons instead of three. I personally don't happen to know what only one chevron constitutes in salutation as far as police departments are concerned, only that the member wearing it would be at a lower rank than police corporal. To my understanding, the occupation of police corporal is a somewhat rare one. Other adjectives or prefixes can be attached, simply to provide detail that movie goers might be interested in utilizing for search purposes, like "male" and "female". I've not really formulated an opinion about the need or common desire for keywords like, say, "male-police-sergeant" and "female-police-sergeant". I do agree that "police officer" can be the umbrella description of every member of a police force that contains police officers, but I'm not sure if we ought to go that route, because we run back into the question of the distinction between "police officer" and "police detective", or for that matter, "police inspector", but invariably most police detectives started out as police officers when joining their respective police departments, and they don't stop being police officers simply for being promoted.

26 Messages

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490 Points

@jeorj_euler, @bradley_kent  , @keyword_expert , @Michelle 
I remember there were news from amazon studios some weeks ago, about diversity and how to cast roles (roles should be casted with people that have the same gender-identity, ethnic,... according to their role).
I thought about this news and today i have read some articles about gender-identity (means the personal sense of one's own gender) and nonbinary-genders.
As i found out, it might be 2-3% of population, who do not identify themselves as man or woman. I think that's a lot. 
As far as i know there are already existing many genders (i do not know the number, but there seems to be many).

I just wanted to add this gender-identity information because the word "gender" is in the topic title. Maybe users searching for it to find something about nonbinary-genders, too.
With this new perspective of a minority i dind't thought of much before, i like @jeorj_euler  and @bradley_kent  replies to add just gender-neutral job-descriptions even better - because it includes all genders.
 
But as i am not contributor anymore and have too few time to follow this community, i will in future only read and post if i get notified.
Cheers.

Edit: Made a longer text shorter.

(edited)

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22K Points

The simplest answer is that there is a difference between official terms and informal/colloquial terms. For example, in the USA it has historically been common for the public to informally use the terms "policeman" and "policewoman," but their official title is "police officer."

The words "policeman" and "policewoman" are used less and less often these days, and never for their official titles.

Interestingly, Random House Webster's Unabridged Dictionary dates the terms "police officer" to 1790-1800, the term "policeman" to 1795-1805, and the term "policewoman" to 1850-1855. 

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490 Points

Il y a 1 a

I would like to wait for the opinion of a staff member related to simplifying the differences between police-ranks. 

In regard to jeorj_euler's reply the keyword policeman could be changed to male-police-officer.

I would prefer to do the same with the keyword patrolman, and changing the keyword cop (gender-neutral) to police-officer.

This way we would have general terms that everybody understands.

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18.7K Points

Keywords should be BOTH general AND specific.  But they should, most importantly, accurately reflect the content of a title, not what is assumed to be most commonly understood.  Searches are BOTH general AND specific, just as keywords should be..

By the way, let me be a seer for a moment: This ever changing world may lead us beyond primary and basic "binary thinking" as we dissolve division  between male and female. and, yes, transgender and fluid.  Why, as any member of SAG/AFTRA like me knows, we are all now designated as "actors," NOT "actors" and "actresses."  

But, from where we are now, and not where we will be in the future, I think most of us still observe that the majority is considered male and the minority is considered female, as history has somewhat biasedly instituted (despite the fact that the world is almost evenly split, 50% male and 50% female.). Right now, "police-officer" means a male-police-officer, so we need the female-police-officer to represent a minority, but may not need "male-police-officer."  In binary thinking, however, I guess, if you have one (male), you must have the other (female).  But is EVERY job going to be prefaced by "male-" or "female-"?

I predict a future where actors will be cast DESPITE their sex, as we are beginning to see in casting despite race, ethnicity, culture, whatever. (Look at the recent historical Mary, Queen of Scots, where such things were irrelevant to casting that was based on talent.). Some subject matters will still demand traditional casting, but we are in the process of "opening up" to a new world. It's a long, log way off, but I see it coming.

Back to the subject:  I still think that "police" (gender neutral) is the best GENERAL keyword, with the more specific job designations also listed as keywords according to their specific descriptions or designations in each specific title.  Don't eradicate the "specifics" in lieu of an attempt to find an all encompassing "generalization."

You cannot assume that everyone "understands" something, because they probably don't.

(edited)

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490 Points

Thank you again for your thoughts.

I predict a future where actors will be cast DESPITE their sex, as we are beginning to see in casting despite race, ethnicity, culture, whatever.

That are really great words and i am totaly with this, as with hopefuly a whole world where these things do not matter any more.

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And how did I forget "constable" and "gendarme"?

Employee

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Hi All -

Thanks for all your thoughtful comments regarding these specific keyword combinations and ideas on how to resolve the issue at hand.  This is part of a wider policy discussion that needs to be had among our site editors to determine a consistent policy.

I have filed a ticket for the appropriate team to review the policy and the comments addressed in this thread.  Once I have further information on a resolution I will post the details here.

Cheers!

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490 Points

@Michelle 

Thank you very much.

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You should also know that some contributors have submitted, and some keyword list managers have accepted, "fuzz" and even "pig" instead of policeman.  This has been particularly noted on some Japanese and Korean titles.

When I see them, I, of course, delete them, and offer "policeman" or "police" instead.

I keep thinking that "police" instead of "police-officer" is the best general, overall keyword, with specifics like "police-detective," "constable," "gendarme," etc. also accepted based on the content of a particular title.

(edited)

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@DataOrganizer 

Your edits to the police-related keywords have resulted in some rather awkward and cryptic keywords:

It sounds like English is not your first language. For the first three keywords listed above, assuming that you indeed mean to use "deceased" as an adjective (i.e. "dead") rather than as an action (i.e., "killed"), then "deceased" should come first in the keyword rather than last. Also, the much more common "dead" would be more easily understood and more commonly used, rather than "deceased." With that in mind, I would recommend changing the first three keywords to the following:

dead-male-police-officer

dead-female-police-officer

dead-police-officer

For the final two keywords, you seem to be using "deceased" as a synonym for "killed." Those keywords should be changed as follows:

killed-by-female-police-officer 
killed-by-male-police-officer 

934 Messages

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Your summation is excellent.  This person(s) also seems to like to add "feline" along with "cat."  I wonder if this is the same person(s) who was adding "reference-to-ali-metallian-ghaemi," which has now been removed from the database.  And these inappropriate keywords are often on Japanese and Korean and sometimes Chinese titles.

 

There are other keyword situations that make them easily identifiable as being the work of one or two contributors, since the same unacceptable keywords and used again and again, and in unison.  These errant contributors seem to fall into a "routine" from which they do not vary, regardless.

Surely, IMDb can not only reject inappropriate keywords, but, perhaps more importantly, contact contributors who continually submit these mistakes so they "cease and desist."  Right now, it seems like a "never-ending story."

(edited)

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@bradley_kent 

I just came across my first instance of the keyword spammer adding "feline" along with "cat."

I also found a few instances of him adding the keyword "swine" for police that he particularly dislikes. I deleted those.

Another idiosyncratic keyword he likes to use is "xian," which is a (sometimes derogatory) word for "christian." I suspect that in his case, he is using "xian" in a derogatory fashion. There is obviously no reason to have this as a separate keyword--it should be consolidated into "christian."

It is interesting how each IMDb contributor leaves their own unique digital signature or fingerprints with their keyword choices. 

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490 Points

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Hello @keyword_expert, thank you for your thoughts.

Yes, english is not my first language and that made things very difficult. I often tried to use web-searches like "what is the difference between..." - but i often couldn't understand the exact meaning of these differences.


"deceased" in the first 3 cases means "killed", too. As I understand it, a distinction was made between the visible act of dying (killing) and other variants, that are not visible (death). The act of killing not always leads to a visible dead person. Also if there is a dead person, it not always means that there was a visible act of dying before. For these the term "death" or "dead" was used. Sometimes both were used.


I had choosen the word "deceased" because the terms "female-cop","policewoman" and "female-police-officer" each had a lot of combinations with the same or similar meaning of death. 
"policewoman-killing" was the main term with over a hundred titles - it meaned "policewoman is killed", but there also were terms like "killed", "killing-of", "death-of", "stabbed", "stabbing-of", "murdered", "murder-of" and more - all together maybe 20 to 30 different terms to just say, a policewoman died in some way.
I decided to use "deceased" because according to my researches it is an officially used term, the most harmless sounding and with it widely accepted word to describe death.

Also because the term "deceased" already existed in different variations on imdb (but less used).


But i understand if it not was the best choice according to what people are used to search here on imdb.
And yes, the terms "deceased-by" were mostly terms like "killed-by" or "death-by".

I appreciate that you (or anybody else) change the terms as it fits better here on imdb,
because i quit my contributions and deleted my account some weeks ago. It was too much work and i got aware that i am not experienced enough for this.
Thank you for your work and comments.

(edited)

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22K Points

@DataOrganizer Thank you for the clarifications. After I wrote my previous comment to you, I did wonder if perhaps there is a distinction here between police officers whose deaths are and are not on-screen. Your response confirms that to be the case.

Nevertheless, the fact remains that as currently drafted, the keywords I pointed out are not grammatically correct. 

I don't plan to edit these particular keywords for now, but at least our public dialogue serves as a record of how these keywords originated. 

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490 Points

@keyword_expert With pleasure. 
I will look in here from time to time and answer if questions should come. 
For me it is a really, really bad feeling after so much work and changes to notice, that i made a lot of mistakes and my work often seems not to fit the needs of imdb-users.
I don't want to make things worse - and I don't know enough about how to do it correctly.

Hope others will correct things in time. 

(edited)

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Il y a 1 a

Another police-related keyword problem involves the keywords "bad-cop" and "bad-cops":

bad-cop (79 titles)
bad-cops (22 titles)

These are "bad" keywords (pun intended), because they are vague. 

In other words, on the face of each keyword, you can't tell exactly what is intended.

Does "bad-cop" mean "corrupt-cop" (1018 titles)?

Does "bad-cop" mean "inept-policeman" (21 titles)?

Does "bad-cop" mean the bad (tough) cop in a tag team of "good-cop-bad-cop" (81 titles)?

Does "bad-cop" mean "evil-cop" (24 titles)?

Does "bad-cop" mean "unethical-cop" (4 titles)?

Does "bad-cop" mean "racist-cop" (66 titles)?

I suspect that each of these meanings (and possibly more) has been intended in the various instances where the "bad-cop" keywords were added.

(edited)