Consternating Contradictions when it comes to IMDb's Acceptance or Rejection of Other Genres for Western titles

@bradley_kent​ 

This also extends to the submissions of other genres like: History (to take the place of the taboo "historical-drama" keyword), 

Since the submission of a deletion of the "historical-drama" keyword is accepted, it is hard to trace other titles, although I believe one was The Last Frontier (1956).

The Last Frontier (1955) would not be an example where you made those changes, since it has had the History genre for a while, and it also looks like it has not ever had the "historical-drama" keyword.

At any rate, The Last Frontier is not eligible for the History genre, given that it focuses on fictional characters. I will submit a request to delete the History genre from this title. 

If you added the History genre to replace the "historical-drama" keyword to any other titles that focus on fictional characters, you should reverse those contributions, because titles that focus on fictional characters are not eligible for the History genre. 

For titles set in the past that are not eligible for the History genre, some good keywords are period-piece (826 titles), historical-setting (28 titles), historical-fiction (678 titles),  period-drama (1324 titles), and costume-drama (231 titles).

There is also the keyword costume-drama-history (120 titles), which I believe was once accepted as a valid subgenre keyword, but was later deleted from the accepted list after you complained about it.  In fact, it looks like both historical-drama (161 titles) and costume-drama-history  were at one point accepted as valid subgenre keywords, but both of them have been subsequently removed from that list.

The simple solution would be to mass merge all instances of the costume-drama-history keyword into costume-drama. I will add that mass merger to my private list for a future public proposal. 

You are waylaying another of my posts by moving this one into a discussion of the History genre.  My main concern here is that Drama is NOT being accepted as a valid genre for many Western titles.  There is just no consistency, and any supposed exceptions result in contradictions and defy explanation.  That is the issue I would like resolved.  (And, I didn't even get into the Action and Adventure genres, which would also seem to apply to many of the Western titles.)

@bradley_kent​ 

You were the one who brought up your addition of the History genre to titles:

This also extends to the submissions of other genres like: History (to take the place of the taboo "historical-drama" keyword), 

I wanted to make sure which titles you are applying the History genre to, and also respond to your discussion of the "historical-drama" keyword (again, all of which was in direct response to points that you raised). 

@keyword_expert​ Instead of The Last Frontier, I should have said Sitting Bull.  Yet, again, my main concern is about the Drama, Comedy or Both genres being approved for specific Western titles.  History, and the unmentioned yet sometimes applicable Action and Adventure and Romance genes are not my main concerns, and not the purpose of this posting.

@bradley_kent​

You should be careful about adding the History genre to Sitting Bull (1954). It very likely does not qualify for the History genre. Specifically, the keywords and reviews for that title indicate that it is a "revisionist Western" with "historical inaccuracies," and Wikipedia refers to this film as "a greatly fictionalised form." 

That could explain why any attempts to add the History genre to this film were rejected. 

Although you might not want the discussion on this thread to continue down the path you have started, everything that I have said here was in direct, necessary response to points that you raised. 

@keyword_exper Then, reject History as a genre for Sitting Bull, but ADD Drama as a genre (which was the purpose of this post, anyway).

It already has "revisionist-western" as a keyword.  Perhaps one could add "fictional-history" as a keyword.

And yet, again, I implore you, THIS POST WAS NOT INTENDED TO FOCUS ON THE "HISTORY" GENRE, but on the Drama, Comedy, or Both genres for Western titles. It seems like you are deliberately diverting from  my original concern.

@bradley_kent​ 

THIS POST WAS NOT INTENDED TO FOCUS ON THE "HISTORY" GENRE

Then you shouldn't have brought up the History genre and the "historical-drama" keyword in this thread, and you should have raised those issues in a different post if you didn't want responses here. 

Perhaps one could add "fictional-history" as a keyword.

"historical-fiction" is the more common keyword.

fictional-history (31 titles)

historical-fiction (678 titles)

@bradley_kent​ Thanks!

I do see none of this submissions have a supporting link for evidence, or even an explanation of you having watched it and how they qualify as such. I think this is a matter that we have talked about on several occasions, it's not that we would think you are making something up, but our editors need to be able to verify the information being added is correct, sometimes they can find the information by researching but sometimes it's not available or easy to find, in which case we rely on what our contributors provide.

Thanks for understanding!

The "supporting link" is IMDb itself.  If needs be, LOOK at the reviews that IMDs, itself, lists.  To determine whether a Western title is a Drama, Comedy or Both, is quite simple, really.  IMDb's own listed -- and accepted -- subgenres are also an indicator

My Drama, Comedy or Both genres submissions are accepted sometimes, but not others.   You need t look no further than the eight titles listed in my original post.  

The problem is NOT supporting materials,BUT the staffers who make these inconsistent and illogical decisions.  One genre addition is accepted, the next is not, without any prevailing or perceptive logic.  The variance in the method (?) that is used to make these decisions needs to be clarified and adhered to by ALL staffers.  Now, it just seems like happenstance, on whim, depending on which staffer is making the decision to accept or reject. Now, it's just nonsensical.  A "throw of the dice."

And, yes, as I said earlier, I attest that I have see the vast majority of these titles, particularly while growing up as a boy in the rural American Midwest.  It aways seemed like "cowboy country" every week at the movies.

By the way, MOST of the older titles are also easily viewable on the internet.  Enter the title followed by "full movie," and you can easily see them.  (I've done this when I had some slight doubt.) I challenge any staffer to take just ONE of my submissions adding "Drama" or "Comedy" or both as a genre, and not agree.  These submissions are objective.  The subjectivity comes into the picture when a possibly naive and unknowing staffer makes an incorrect and uninformed (possibly expedient) decision. 

P.S. I am in New York City, and The Oklahoman (1957) just started in TCM.  In the first scene, Joel McCrea's wife dies after childbirth in a covered wagon!  Now, if THAT doesn't qualify as Drama, I don't know what does.

@bradley_kent​ If you feel there is a review that would help our editors verify you can link it in the submission, keep in mind we receive thousands of submissions a day, and we can't read the reviews for every title a submission is made for.

Thanks for understanding.

The acceptance of the submissions of the Drama genre to Western titles continues to be frustratingly inconsistent.

Is there, for example,  any explanation, whatsoever, for the rejection of the Drama genre for the Budd Boetticher-Randolph Scott, or Anthony Mann-James Stewart oeuvre Western Dramas?  I can only surmise that the IMDb staffer who is rejecting these Drama genre submissions knows ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about Western films.

This problem is hardly "solved"!  Whoever marked it as "solved" is gravely mistaken.  

Here's another example of the illogical, inconsistent acceptance/rejection of the Drama genre for Western titles on two back-to-back contributions:  One Drama genre addition (for The Young Land) is NOT  accepted while the very next one (for Three Young Texans) IS accepted!  Is there any possible explanation?

Whoever is making such decisions to not accept Drama as a valid genre when it is factually applicable is being totally nonsensical.

William Boyd made 66 Hopalong Cassisy westerns.  IMDb accepts Drama as a genre for 64 of these titles, but not for 2:  Twilight on the Trail (1941) and Hoppy’s Holiday (1947).

Why the rejections?

Wild Bill Elliott made 75 Westerns between the late 1930s and the early 1950s. IMDb accepts Drama as a genre for 71 of these titles, but not for 4:  Bodertown Gun Fighters (1943), California Gold Rush (1946), Wyoming (1947), and The Gallant Legion (1948).

Why the rejections?

There is just no sense nor consistency in the processing of these genre contributions.  Who is in charge, anyway, and why?

@bradley_kent​ 

William Boyd made 66 Hopalong Cassisy westerns.  IMDb accepts Drama as a genre for 64 of these titles, but not for 2:  Twilight on the Trail (1941) and Hoppy’s Holiday (1947).

I haven't seen these titles so I can't say anything about their genres, but the fact that 64 of these westerns are Drama's is no proof that the other two are. Only the title itself counts to see if said title fits a certain definition. It's the same as saying Alfred Hitchcock (generally/usually) didn't make comedies and because of that removing the genre Comedy from The Trouble With Harry: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0048750/reference/  or Mr. & Mrs. Smith: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0033922/reference/

I've just submitted the addition of Drama to The Gunfighter and The Westerner, so we'll see how that goes.

The Gunfighter (1950) does not have Drama as a genre (although it is probably one of the most dramatic Westerns ever made), but The Westerner (1940) does.  This is just another example of IMDb's typical inconsisnency when it comes to this problem.

I have also just been noticing that, now, someone is deleting the Drama genre from some Westerns that previously HAD Drama as a genre!  Goodness, me!

@bradley_kent​ Well, they've both gone through now (as well as The Big Country), so here's hoping you have better success with yours.

Dating back to the ancient civilizations of antiquity (and elucidated by the ancient Greeks), narrative literature and storytelling have two "super genres": Comedy and Tragedy.  (Hence, the iconic hellenic masks of Comedy and Tragedy.) They are the two "super genres" that, through time, have evolved into Comedy and Drama.  Comedy and Drama, therefore,  precede all other genres. 

Show biz awards like the Emmys, the Golden Globes, and many others, categorize titles as Comedy or Drama.

A major Western like the Gunsmoke (1955-1975) series, for example, was nominated for and won Emmys in the "Drama" or "Dramatic Series" category.  Westerns are either a Comedy, or a Drama, or both. This is the plain, simple, obvious fact.

If IMDb is an archive of factual information, it is obliged to report the facts. It should  not pervert the facts with personal, subjective, artificially created agendas.  All Westerns are comedies, or dramas, or both.  Something "is what it is," and that fact should not be denied.

Sublime arrogance and blind ignorance are not excuses for ignoring or misrepresenting the truth. 

Please, IMDb, come to your senses.

@bradley_kent​ 

What IMDb has said is that you should provide explanations or sources in your submissions.

That some edits are accepted while similar edits are declined is not unusual. Even if some items were randomly selected and rejected because further evidence is required, that would qualify as a spot check. You are of course free to keep submitting without evidence, but then you will just have to resubmit with a better explanation if the first attempt is declined.

Varying with who is submitting corrections, sometimes evidence can be provided and corrections will be declined regardless. I don't believe the IMDb data editors can always thoroughly check out every submission within seven days' time. Sometimes they have to evaluate how much they trust the contributor and simply make a decision based off of that.

@bradley_kent​ I agree that Westerns should almost always have another genre, as having only the single genre generally indicates the setting but not the tone. But I don't agree that all westerns must be listed as either a Comedy or a Drama; some exceptions that come to mind are Cowboys & Aliens and Ravenous.

I'll add that the Comedy genre is widely abused, as contributors often add it when simple comic relief is present; I've submitted Comedy deletions today for Little Big Man and Coogan's Bluff. (Edit: Comedy deletions rejected. Sigh...)

The ongoing inconsistencies are absolutely astounding:

Regarding John Ford's famous cavalry trilogy, She Wore a Yellow Ribbon (1949) has both Western and Drama as genres, but Drama is NOT an accepted genre for Fort Apache (1948) nor Rio Grade (1950).

Robert Aldrich's Ulzana's Raid (1972) has both Western and Drama, but its precursor, Apache (1954), does NOT have Drama as an accepted genre.  IMDb also DOES NOT accept Drama as a genre for Aldrich's other Burt Lancaster Western, Vera Cruz (1954).

W.R. Burnett's Frame 'Saint' Johnson novel has been filmed four time, 1932, 1937, 1940 and 1953, but ONLY the 1937 version has both Drama and Western as genres.

Jesse James (1939) has both Drama and Western as genres, but Drama is NOT an accepted genre for its sequel, The Return of Frank James (1940).

C'mon, IMDb, come to your senses.

Go figure!  Three consecutive submissions on Tab Hunter Westerns:  Drama IS NOT accepted as a genre for Gunman's Walk, Drama IS accepted as a genre for Gun Belt, and, then, Drama is NOT accepted as a genre for The Burning Hills.  What?