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Marco
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Tuesday, August 13th, 2019 10:24 AM

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Birth names no longer a useful section of the database?

I just noticed this article https://www.imdb.com/news/ni62580914 that links to this article https://variety.com/2019/film/actors/imdb-alters-policy-publication-birth-names-1203300451/. I just want a staffer to respond to this news. Is it true that IMDb allows birth names to be completely to be deleted from the database, nowhere to be found? If this is not true, that's good. If this is true, the database has been compromised and IMDb has made a step in the wrong, Orwellian direction.


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5 years ago

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luke_davies_9109eqp44ayab

54 Messages

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1.7K Points

5 years ago

Ya i just read that too.. I thought Imdb’s whole cornerstone was the fact that they never delete valid information.. like these 2 articles even state:


https://help.imdb.com/article/contrib...#


And


https://help.imdb.com/article/contrib...#


What the hell happened?

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Marco

2.7K Messages

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What the hell happened?

I sure hope a staffer will respond to this question.

5 years ago

luke_davies_9109eqp44ayab

54 Messages

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1.7K Points

Imdb keeping all valid info permanently is one of the main reasons why I love this website so much..

5 years ago

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Peter_pbn

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The answer is in the article, no?

5 years ago

luke_davies_9109eqp44ayab

54 Messages

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1.7K Points

What do you mean??

5 years ago

Peter_pbn

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You ask what happened, and the article in the first post explains the background.

5 years ago

luke_davies_9109eqp44ayab

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1.7K Points

My only worry is what will this end up leading to..

5 years ago

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Marco

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"Valid info" ??!

Yes, valid info. This is a database. It stores data. In this particular case, about, among other things, people who worked on movies, series and video games. Someone's name as well as someone's birth name is data. It is stored in a database.

WTF do you knowing someones dead name?

I think that for literally 99 per cent of all famous people, it's easy to find out their birth names. So knowing the birth name of someone in this database is not that weird.

You are here to look up movies

Among other things. People are also here to look up actors, or directors, or simply people with whom they share a birthday. As founder and current CEO of IMDb, Col Needham, once said "IMDb means different things to different people."

what you want is one of those investigation sites so you can dox people and harass them.

If you are actually accusing people on this board of wanting to dox or harass people, you are way out of line and I feel you should take it back and apologize.

5 years ago

Marco

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(if someone knows how to delete duplicated posts, I'm all ears)

5 years ago

0

Marco

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Thanks Ed, for clearing that up.

5 years ago

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MiketheWhistle

795 Messages

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23.6K Points

5 years ago

What's interesting, to me, is that the way the policy is written will apply to all birth names, not just transgender ones.

I'm not in the business, but is this something of concern across the industry like birth dates?  I can think of a whole list of security reasons why it might be the case, but just don't know.

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luke_davies_9109eqp44ayab

54 Messages

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1.7K Points

5 years ago

What about other factual information regarding films, tv shows or video games though? Will all that remain on imdb permanently?

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MykolaYeriomin

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Luke Davies, it most certainly will. It is evident that birth names are a notable exception and partial, at that.

5 years ago

Marco

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This is a fricken  fan movie site,

Well, partly, but more that a fan movie site, IMDb is a database (guess what the Db in the name IMDb stand for :) ) about films, tv series and video games and the people who worked on them. Obviously, such a database will draw a lot of fans of a lot of movies, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a database.

not the FBI  Luke.

You do realize that lots of internet sites mention birth names of well-known people don't you?

5 years ago

kati_knitt

93 Messages

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1.8K Points

I'm with Perky Pants, IMDb has been way too bureaucratic about this very sensitive issue for way too long.

5 years ago

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kati_knitt

93 Messages

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1.8K Points

You can't put that over the well being of marginalized people.

5 years ago

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Marco

2.7K Messages

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You can't put that over the well being of marginalized people.

A database is neutral. It doesn't judge. It doesn't give one group of people an advantage or a disadvantage. It doesn't have an opinion about the people it lists, be they marginalized or not.
A database does not marginalize people. Other people do that. And that is terrible and should be stopped. But not allowing people to talk and know about FACTS is always the wrong answer, no matter what the question is.

5 years ago

kati_knitt

93 Messages

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1.8K Points

Deadnames are used to hurt people. IMDb is providing deadnames. IMDb is hurting trans people.

5 years ago

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Marco

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Birth names can be used to hurt people, but stating that birth names are always used to hurt people is just nonsense and I think you know that. IMDb doesn't use birth names to hurt people. Other people might use these names to hurt people, but that can't and shouldn't be blamed on an impartial database, it should be blamed on the people who willingly hurt other people.

5 years ago

Marco

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Birth names can be used to hurt people, but stating that birth names are always used to hurt people is just nonsense and I think you know that. IMDb doesn't use birth names to hurt people. Other people might use these names to hurt people, but that can't and shouldn't be blamed on an impartial database, it should be blamed on the people who willingly hurt other people.

5 years ago

eboy

2.5K Messages

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5 years ago

It’s good to read this part from the Variety article:

”The IMDb spokesperson also said for birth name removal requests pertaining to titles in which a person was credited on-screen as their birth name, their credited name will remain listed in the credits section of applicable IMDb name and title pages in parentheses.”

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luke_davies_9109eqp44ayab

54 Messages

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1.7K Points

What does that mean? That their original name will still appear?

5 years ago

0

kelly_l_6500954

73 Messages

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2.5K Points

If I understand correctly:

If someone was credited under their birth (or other former) name, then the credited name will still appear for credit identification purposes along with the current name (but the birth name will not appear in the biography section if requested).

If someone was not ever credited under their birth name, and all of the other conditions apply, then you won't see the birth name anymore.

5 years ago

luke_davies_9109eqp44ayab

54 Messages

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1.7K Points

Ya because Imdb stress that on-screen credits are what matter

But they also state that will go forth and erase ALL birth names of those who have changed their names for whatever reason..

5 years ago

0

luke_davies_9109eqp44ayab

54 Messages

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1.7K Points

5 years ago

My big question is: with this new policy revision..

Are the rules in these 3 following articles still permanent

https://help.imdb.com/article/contrib...#

And

https://help.imdb.com/article/contrib...#

And

https://help.imdb.com/article/contrib...#

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Marco

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Are the rules in these 3 following articles still permanent

The way I understand all this bad news, is that the content of the first two articles needs an update and is currently incorrect.

5 years ago

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luke_davies_9109eqp44ayab

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But the 3rd remains unaffected because it just has to do with film titles, tv show titles and video game titles, not their individual credits?

5 years ago

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Marco

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I think so, yes.

5 years ago

0

luke_davies_9109eqp44ayab

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1.7K Points

5 years ago

This reply was created from a merged topic originally titled New imdb policy on birth names.

Because of this new policy on removing birth names

https://variety.com/2019/film/actors/...

Imdb will still keep all factual film titles, tv shows and video game titles permanently? Correct?

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luke_davies_9109eqp44ayab

54 Messages

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1.7K Points

5 years ago

The way I see it is, if IMDb caves for this.. soon other people in the industry will request removals of other valid information, then pretty much anyone will be able to remove whatever they want.. this new policy completely defeats the purpose of building a database.. it’s supposed to build and keep a permanent catalog of all things for film, tv shows and video games.. that’s its purpose

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MykolaYeriomin

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5 years ago

Wow, Facebook comments on this article appearing on IMDb are a tsunami of people overreacting and being unnecessary rude...  

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luke_davies_9109eqp44ayab

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Ya.. very bad call..

5 years ago

luke_davies_9109eqp44ayab

54 Messages

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5 years ago

Being rude about is extremely unnecessary for sure.. my only concern is that hoping this nee policy doesn’t compromise the database where everyone will soon request removals..

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luke_davies_9109eqp44ayab

54 Messages

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1.7K Points

5 years ago

This reply was created from a merged topic originally titled Question about the new policy.

Can a staff member please confirm this: So to be absolutely clear, will this new policy regarding name changes, will it affect film titles, tv shows and video game staying on imdb permanently? Film titles, tv shows and video games staying on imdb for good will never change, correct?

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Giancarlo_Cairella

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500 Messages

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42.2K Points

5 years ago

Thank you for sharing your concerns about our new policy

As documented on the site, we will now review requests to remove a birth name from a person's biographical details if the birth name is not broadly publicly known (i.e. it's not already widely recognized and available elsewhere through sources such as major reference sites or publications) and if the person no longer voluntarily uses it (i.e. only uses their birth name when compelled to do so by government/legal requirements, but not in other aspects of their daily or professional life).



Names listed in filmography credits for titles in which the person was credited under their birth name will continue to be displayed. This is in order to continue providing IMDb’s hundreds of millions of customers worldwide with comprehensive information about film and TV credits, thereby preserving the factual historical record by accurately reflecting what is listed on-screen.


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Marco

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As documented on the site, we will now review requests to remove a birth name from a person's biographical details if the birth name is not broadly publicly known (i.e. it's not already widely recognized and available elsewhere through sources such as major reference sites or publications) and if the person no longer voluntarily uses it (i.e. only uses their birth name when compelled to do so by government/legal requirements, but not in other aspects of their daily or professional life).


So what you're saying is that birth names can be removed, even if they're factual?
Doesn't that go against the fundamental concept of a database? Isn't IMDb undermining IMDb here?

5 years ago

Marco

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They are  transsexual .

Maybe I missed something, but I don't believe anybody said they aren't.

REMOVE THE DEAD NAMING YOU HAVE PLAGUED THEM  WITH FOR 15 FKING YEARS.

Shouting and cursing is rather unbecoming.

You have been the single source of harassment for transgender community

You have quite some nerve accusing a database that publishes data of harassment. If you don't want a database stating facts, I genuinely feel sorry for you.

Is this as joke?

That's what I thought when I first heard about this ridiculous policy change, but for a totally different reason.


That is the biggest joke of all.

Are you saying that you know what it is all these hundreds of millions of people look up while they're on IMDb?

You are a fan site

Database.

you use IMDB Pro to extort money out of people simply to control their own data.

You don't have to use IMDbPro you know. If you deserve an IMDb name page, you will get one. And on regular IMDb, your name and some information about you will be visible, whether or not you have IMDbPro doesn't change that.

to abuse them

Why do you consider it abuse that a database stores birth names of the people in the database? There's no shame in one's birth name. It's the name one is given around the time of their birth, nothing more, nothing less. There is no abuse in stating the fact of one's birth name, and especially not for a database.

5 years ago

jay_spirit

981 Messages

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29.2K Points

5 years ago

I'm in favor of IMDb allowing workaday non-celebrity actors and crew to remove personal information, such as birth names and ages, from the database. Anyone can make a YouTube video and put in on IMDb. What's to stop someone from thanking an enemy in his YouTube video, which allows him to create an IMDb name page for the guy, and put out his personal information?

But IMDb is only allowing the removal of one kind of personal information. And they're doing it because they caved in to a pressure group. I'm against caving in to pressure groups.

I hope IMDb notices that they gained NOTHING through this decision. One of the pressure groups is already calling the decision "a half-measure." The more they cave in, the more the pressure groups will demand more caving.

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luke_davies_9109eqp44ayab

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1.7K Points

That’s exactly what I’m afraid of

5 years ago

emma_arpin

45 Messages

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1.2K Points

IMDb gets used as a resume in the entertainment industry, and the previous policy assisted discrimination of trans people in the industry. Lots of people who are "workaday non-celebrity actors and crew" were negatively affected by IMDb's previous policy. Also, IMDb assisted in discrimination, and to an extent still does, of people who work additional jobs outside of the entertainment industry as "workaday non-celebrities," along with other issues such as housing discrimination.

5 years ago

0

jay_spirit

981 Messages

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29.2K Points

My position is that IMDb should allow workaday non-celebrity actors and crew to remove personal information from the database if it did not appear in film credits.

5 years ago

0

MykolaYeriomin

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Emma Arpin, just my five cents but I always thought of IMDb being used as a resume as a side effect. It was and is, first and foremost, a database. So from my point of view the process is a bit similar to, say, taking a dictionary or encyclopedia, or an archive and replacing all the legit info with resumes, with no discretion as to whether those are correct or not. It happened before you know. It, with people like Quentin Tarantino falsely putting credits/roles in Dawn of the Dead (1978) and King Lear (1987) on his resume, knowing they would be a hard thing to verify. They then ended up being on  Leonard Maltin's Movie and Video Guide and are still surface from time to time as a false fact. That is exactly what happens when people mostly treat databases and encyclopedias as promotional instruments. 

5 years ago

eboy

2.5K Messages

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69.2K Points

5 years ago

I'm a strong supporter of (film/TV/video games) cast & crew credits, trivia and all the other info related to actual filmmaking process. People should recognize the historical value of IMDb, it's already huge. IMDb is not a CV or resume service (altough, as said many times before, people can of course use the site for that) and it shouldn't be controlled by agents, PR people, "Hollywood" executives or any "pressure groups" (all this generally speaking - there are total professionals in every area).

But sure, I can see the various problems related to information such as birth dates, residence, the names of a spouse and children, info of ex-wives-husbands/girl-boyfriends, divorces, criminal record issues (since now even an accusation seems to be enough - people want to add that to trivia or to biography), etc. Also "biography" is one of those areas where problems can arise quite easily. I personally feel that there's a difference between "biography" and "professional biography" and I support the latter.

I don't have any real answers, however, and I'm not sure that is this decision a good or bad thing for IMDb (maybe a bit of both?). But I do understand some issues behind it. Internet is a pretty nasty and dark place, especially nowadays. IMDb shouldn't give any additional "tools" for abuse. At least they should be very cautious with biography/trivia/etc information that is considered more "personal" than "professional" (there's a very fine line sometimes, but it's often there).

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MiketheWhistle

795 Messages

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23.6K Points

Your comment that "IMDb is not a CV or resume service" is wrong because of imdbpro. What's funny is I almost was going to comment yesterday regarding that the only reason this occurred is because imdb now gets paid by some. If it didn't, I bet the names would be there forever. Not saying if that's right or wrong, just the way it is.

5 years ago

eboy

2.5K Messages

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69.2K Points

It’s not really wrong, since IMDB and IMDbPro are two different things. The latter is a paid service with certain benefits. It’s always best to talk about ”IMDbPro” if you refer to that service.

5 years ago

emma_arpin

45 Messages

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1.2K Points

IMDbPro pulls from the same database.

5 years ago

luke_davies_9109eqp44ayab

54 Messages

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1.7K Points

5 years ago

Hopefully a staffer can come in and answer this question but now because of this new policy, will these following articles be updated or will they remain the same?

https://help.imdb.com/article/contrib...#

https://help.imdb.com/article/contrib...#

https://help.imdb.com/article/contrib...#

0

0

luke_davies_9109eqp44ayab

54 Messages

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1.7K Points

5 years ago

I read in another thread that iMDb is already in the middle of some california litigation to possibly remove ages too?

24

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gromit82

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Yes, but so far IMDb has been successful in that case. The State of California passed a law which would have required IMDb to remove birthdates in some cases. IMDb sued to have the law declared unconstitutional, and the district court found in favor of IMDb.

The case is on appeal, though. There will be a hearing in the Court of Appeals next month.

In case you are looking for more information about that case, it is called IMDb.com, Inc. v. Becerra.

5 years ago

luke_davies_9109eqp44ayab

54 Messages

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1.7K Points

Ok so now there might be another thing that people can request to be removed, if imdb does not win this case.. uugh jesus, what next?

5 years ago

luke_davies_9109eqp44ayab

54 Messages

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1.7K Points

My big question is will this lead to people requesting to remove movies, or tv shows or video games? Will imdb then have to comply with them?

5 years ago

luke_davies_9109eqp44ayab

54 Messages

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1.7K Points

That is my greatest concern..

5 years ago

jay_spirit

981 Messages

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29.2K Points

Ideologues are already requesting - no, demanding - that certain movies, TV shows and video games be removed from IMDb for political reasons. The question is not whether the demands will be made, the question is whether IMDb will cave in to them.

5 years ago

luke_davies_9109eqp44ayab

54 Messages

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1.7K Points

Exactly.. at that point, what use is a database if all you’re gonna do is remove information from it? You cannot be the Internet’s most comprehensive database about movies if you end up removing data..

5 years ago

emma_arpin

45 Messages

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1.2K Points

Deadnaming people—and in the case of this specific policy change people who were not widely known to the public by their deadname—does not add to a movie database. However, it does assist discrimination against trans people in employment, housing, etc.

5 years ago

luke_davies_9109eqp44ayab

54 Messages

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1.7K Points

Look, as long as people don’t start removing films, tv, or video games.. then fine i guess

5 years ago

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MiketheWhistle

795 Messages

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23.6K Points

Wow. talk about making it personal.
And what does this sentence me PPP?
"You are talking about the trivial facts about  fantasy."

5 years ago

0

MiketheWhistle

795 Messages

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23.6K Points

LOL. You really seem to be taking this very personally when to the best of my recollection of what I've seen that's not been the angle.
So somebody taking the position that true info should be kept is a bad person to be attacked personally.  All at the same time you argue that keeping accurate info is de facto attacking someone.
And criticizing someone personally by their # of posts which you've had 10 posts in one day would mean that you're living on here.

And then to top it all off you pull out the race card to try and shame someone. Be proud of your position, be respectful, and quit trying to drag the argument into the muck.

5 years ago

luke_davies_9109eqp44ayab

54 Messages

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1.7K Points

As i said.. my only issue is what this could lead to.. people requesting to take down their names.. then their ages, what happens when people start demanding their films, tv shows or video games be taken down??

5 years ago

luke_davies_9109eqp44ayab

54 Messages

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1.7K Points

As i said.. my only issue is what this could lead to.. people requesting to take down their names.. then their ages, what happens when people start demanding their films, tv shows or video games be taken down??

5 years ago

MiketheWhistle

795 Messages

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23.6K Points

What happened to posts disappearing??? Very odd.
And PPP you are ignoring my question about the sentence I didn't understand because it looked like it got clipped. I'm trying to listen to your argument, but you aren't making it easy.

5 years ago

MiketheWhistle

795 Messages

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23.6K Points

What happened to posts disappearing??? Very odd.
And PPP you are ignoring my question about the sentence I didn't understand because it looked like it got clipped. I'm trying to listen to your argument, but you aren't making it easy.

5 years ago

0

MiketheWhistle

795 Messages

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23.6K Points

I've not expressed any opinion regarding this new policy because I don't understand all the angles of it. (Until yesterday I had never heard of the term deadnaming).
So thx for calling me an asshole. Been awhile that I've had a teen throwing names at me and it's just as funny now as it was then.  All you're doing is prove my point that you're taking this personally which destroys your ability to make any good argument.

5 years ago

MiketheWhistle

795 Messages

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23.6K Points

My bad. Sorry 15 posts in 60 minutes. That's not overkill. LOL
So in less than an hour you started calling me curse names and going to the lowest denominator of using race baiting.
I was in the navy, attached to marines, so trust me I've been called everything in the book and it doesn't bother me in the least.
I'll at least say this, Ed can be sharp-tongued, but don't recall him calling people names.

But if it makes you feel better PPP, go ahead and call me names. I can tell this is a very personal, troubling issue for you for which I'm sorry for you. I'd really like to understand the angles as it's not something I'm familiar with. I've only known one person who was trans and that was about 20 years ago.  She was a friend and a fellow vet, and times or people were different because none of us cared. So it's something I'm ignorant about, but would like to understand.  So try and make a cogent, non-personal counter-argument vs saying someone is a curse word, bad person, or a bigot.

5 years ago

kati_knitt

93 Messages

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1.8K Points

Can confirm that Ed Jones really enjoys transphobia.

5 years ago

0

kati_knitt

93 Messages

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1.8K Points

Get your ----- Oscar man, I bet it'll floor audiences

5 years ago

0

MiketheWhistle

795 Messages

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23.6K Points

Would you rather me make up having a dozen trans friends?? Again you're just attacking someone. And PPP I've only seen one post where you've tried to make any argument, but you started it off with cursing. And deny it all you want, your post did call me a name.
Frankly this isn't an issue that impacts me regardless. My friend committed suicide but it had nothing to do with being trans but instead with ptsd. But I should also say that I may have met other people that were trans but didn't know.  It's not something I care about. Kind of like someone saying they're taking a particular point of view and being nasty from the start. It makes me care much less about their position. Thus far I've not seen anything that is persuasive that the actual names in credits shouldn't be listed.


5 years ago

0

Marco

2.7K Messages

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82.6K Points

Cursing is rather unbecoming Kati.

5 years ago

0

Marco

2.7K Messages

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82.6K Points

Cursing is rather unbecoming Kati.

5 years ago

0

kati_knitt

93 Messages

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1.8K Points

Inspirational!

5 years ago

0

kati_knitt

93 Messages

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1.8K Points

Misgendering, that's a new one.

5 years ago

MiketheWhistle

795 Messages

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23.6K Points

PPP/snowflake,
I didn't see this until now, and was going to ignore it, but just for the record she left a note.  She had served in Vietnam and was haunted by what someone who has been in a war is haunted by. I know you know nothing of this because none of your comments reflect anything indicative you ever served, but that was your choice as was mine, my friend's, and many others who choose to serve so you could voice opinions.
As to the trans issue impacting the suicide, I guess I choose to assume that being in war had nothing related to her trans gender because if it did, then the whole concept of trans would be blown up because it's supposed to be about something more fundamental than just a tragic issue.
So again you fail to speak with anything inteligent, and no matter what name you choose to be here as, you fail to make any persuasive arguments as to the actual harm done to anyone is.
In fact I found a blog that gave me the best argument related to removing birth names and it's based on that unlike a stage name, someone who is trans it's not a stage name but a more fundamental name change as it's associated with a sexual identity change. Now that argument alone doesn't convince me that imdb should change it's policy, but it's a good argument and start.
See unlike you, I like to be informed and persuaded before making a decision.
And again I'm going to ignore you, although I wish I could just block you.

5 years ago

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