bradley_kent's profile

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Saturday, March 13th, 2021 10:14 PM

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Some major keyword issues

When it comes to IMDb, I, primarily, think of myself as a librarian and/or researcher. (One of my “first” jobs as a young adult was, literally, the latter.)  As such, I view IMDb an an archive — a collection of data about films, television, etc. — that should be readily understandable to the user.   (As a young boy, I was drawn to the old Reader’s Guide at the library to satisfy my curiosities about movies.  But it was somewhat frustrating that Reader’s Guide used the seemingly archaic and old fashioned “moving pictures” rather than “movies” or “film” as a subject heading.)

I have been a contributor to and user of IMDb for many years, under a different name in the early, formative years,  My contributions have been for many different departments, although I estimate that 90% are now to keywords.  If I have learned one thing from all of this, it is that there are always exceptions to guidelines and decisions.

This leads me to five observations about keywords on which I would like user, contributor and staff feedback:

  1. Duplications seem to abound.  Sometimes, it seems as if the contributor is trying to find how many different ways the same thing can be stated.  Bring out the thesaurus and find as many synonyms as possible!  In the early days of IMDb, the rule seemed to be that the keyword listing the most titles was the preferred one.  So, do we need “traumatic-experience” when we have “trauma?”  “violent-behavior” when we have “violence?” "guilty-feeling" when we have "guilt?" Etc.

2) I have also noticed that there is a preference for “actions” rather than the person “doing” or “receiving” the action.  If you have “murder,” why do you need “murderer” or “murder-victim,” although “child-murderer,” “teenage-murderer” and “murderess” seem valid since they are minority exceptions.  If you list “rape,” why list “rapist” and “rape-victim,” although “male-rape” is a necessary exception?  If you have “hitchhiking,” do you need “hitchhiker”? If you have “gambling,”do you need “gambler”?  If “dancing,” do you need “dancer”? “singing”/“singer”? “kidnapping”/“kidnapper”-“kidnap-victim?” Etc

3) A “person” seems to take preference over an “object,” although sometimes the “object” can exist without the person.  If you have “violin-player” or “violinist” (duplication?), do you need “violin”?  Yes, sometimes an object (“violin”) can exist without being played or used, in which case (no pun intended) “violin” would be an acceptable keyword. “drums”/“drummer”? “trumpet”/“trumpet-player”-“trumpeter”? “card-playing”/“card-player”-“playing-cards”?

4) Standalone adjectives are very troublesome and can easily be misinterpreted as to be “applying” to a title, itself, or even to the user of the title.  “mentally-challenged-man” can represent a key plot element, but the standalone “mentally-challenged” could mean that the title, itself, is “mentally-challenged,” or that you and I are “mentally-challenged” — either of which may be true, but such determinations are probably beyond any of us unless we are a psychiatrist or psychologist.  Should standalone adjectives ever be keywords?

5) certain existing keywords seem absolutely unnecessary. Ars Poetica told us that drama (and comedy) must always have “conflict,” i.e.  Man (or woman) against man (or woman), man (or woman) against God, man (or woman) against Nature, with the modern addition of man (or woman) against himself (or herself).  “conflict” is a concerning keyword that should probably be limited to politics, war or land disputes. i.e.”arab-israeli-conflict.”  Relatedly, keywords like “stress” and “tension” seem unnecessary.  How can there be “conflict” without “stress” and/or “tension”?

Replies and insights would be appreciated.  There are other keywords issues that can and should be raised, but, “after all, tomorrow IS another day”!

47 Messages

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1.1K Points

4 years ago

I agree that a list of keywords should be as short as possible in order to be efficient and useful.
That's why I don't often use them.

I don't know how it works here but, when submitting a keyword, it would be convenient for the system to suggest already existing similar keywords to choose from.

10.7K Messages

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225.4K Points

The system already sort of does that.

10.7K Messages

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225.4K Points

4 years ago

As always, there are cases where we know the meaning of a word but don't know to which particular class of things a word applies when the word is used as a movie keyword, as it may refer the movie itself or something within the story, like an element, a character or an event. So, often we wonder what does a keyword like "netflix" signify.

Considering somethings like "murder" and "murderer", we may be able to easily realize that a movie can show or depict one without showing or depicting the other. For instance, there could be a movie that is about a murderer or but which doesn't depict murder, but interestingly this doesn't work the other way around. Indeed naturally the question may be raised about whether or not the character considered to be a murderer is actually one.

In regards to the relationship between "stress" and "conflict", certainly the former can exist without the latter. Of course, stress and tension are at least partially synonymous. In the study of physics, just to note, the two words may not exactly carry the same meaning, though. So, mental stress is distinct from physical stress (or physiological stress), both of which are distinct from material stress as a measurement. Interpersonal tension is certainly distinct from material tension in a rope/cable. While, social tension may signify conflict, there might not actually be any use of force, coercion, deception or connivance, by one person against another. We should also be open to the possibility that a movie could depict characters who experience no feeling of stress despite being in egregious conflict with each other, perhaps because they are both psychopathic.

Overall, to some degree, all words are ambiguous, which may only mean that we ought to double down on attaching adjectives to most nouns, unless vagueness is somehow necessary. Certain workarounds will have to be thought up and used, until we have an AI system that is at least partially able to sort it out, in such a way as to spare human beings the expenditure of some labor.

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23.4K Points

Interesting discussion.  It seems that keywords should be both general AND specific.  (Personally, I prefer the more specific.)   But the problem arises as to whether people agree on specific definitions.  I doubt we do.  Some keywords need definitions, but, even then, I expect that there would not be agreement, or that people would not inform themselves of the definitions.  (This is not a criticism, just an observation.).

Yes, "violin-player" and "violinist" mean different thing to me -- separated by a degree of talent and professionalism,  but, this, too, is very subjective.  And, logically, all "violinists" are "violin-players," but not all "violin-players" all "violinists."  It's a subjective call.  What is an objective, agreeable distinction?

Adjectives are all particularly subjective.  Turning nouns into adjectives seems particularly problematic.  Turning "murder" into "murderous,"  for example, even expands that degree of subjectivity.  Standalone adjectives should, again, be used very sparingly, if at all.

Yes, there are many different kinds of trauma and violence, which would  probably need to be specifically defined and have their own specific keywords.  But I was thinking in more general terms that "trauma" and "traumatic-experience," and "violence," and "violent behavior," are synonyms with one just a duplication of the other.

I had thought about the stress in buildings and bridges, but that would better be represented by a more specific keyword like "architectural-stress."  

Finally, just let me say that, although educated, I am very much of the working class.  The biggest compliment that I every received in my life was from someone who said: "You are the most un-PhD PhD I've ever met."  Please, refrain from stereotypes regarding me. I could have chosen the route of academia in a university, but preferred to work in a vocational school, and, then,  in a professional acting school.  Nomadland is a film I strongly identify with.  Why, I once even had a job as a janitor in a bar where one of my duties was to clean out a spittoon!

Please, keep this discussion going.

(edited)

2.7K Messages

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47K Points

@jeorj_euler​ said:

For instance, there could be a movie that is about a murderer or but which doesn't depict murder, but interestingly this doesn't work the other way around.

The latter point in your statement is not necessarily true.

Consider a movie with a random bomb explosion that murders many people, but the bomber's identity is never revealed. Such a movie definitely depicts murder and yet does not depict a murderer.

10.7K Messages

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225.4K Points

Yeah, I was thinking about that, but it felt like the very process of the characters, the narrator or the story itself asserting that the death is a homicide and that the homicide is a murder would inherently at least imply the presence of a murderer, but maybe existence does not necessarily even come close to equating to presence. Haha.

Employee

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17.5K Messages

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313.3K Points

4 years ago

Hi bradley_kent & All -

 

Thanks for all your comments regarding Keywords on IMDb.

 

We are always seeking to prioritize relevant data and policy improvements on the site, Keywords specifically is a data type that has a lot of opportunities to be enhanced further.

 

I have taken note of many of the pain-points mentioned within this thread and will escalate them accordingly for visibility and future improvements.

 

Cheers!

 

 

 

 

 

 

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23.4K Points

Thank you.