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Tuesday, January 5th, 2021 2:42 AM

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Pronoun trouble

There was recently a discussion about how Elliot Page is listed in IMDb (see https://community-imdb.sprinklr.com/conversations/data-issues-policy-discussions/elliot-page/5fe1c217213e1d6428fb5e1b), and I hate to belabor this issue, but I've had a correction rejected twice which I believe should be accepted. (See contribution numbers 210101-175230-390000 and 201229-181808-593000.)

Page's biography currently states:

With their breakout role in Jason Reitman's hit comedy Juno (2007), about an offbeat teenager who finds themselves unexpectedly pregnant, Page received Academy Award, BAFTA, Golden Globe and SAG Best Actress nominations, and won the Independent Spirit Award for their performance. 

I attempted to correct this to say:

With their breakout role in Jason Reitman's hit comedy Juno (2007), about an offbeat teenager who finds herself unexpectedly pregnant, Page received Academy Award, BAFTA, Golden Globe and SAG Best Actress nominations, and won the Independent Spirit Award for their performance. 

My explanation was:

Using a "herself" pronoun to refer to a female character that Page played. "They/them" pronouns are used to refer to Page as a real-life non-binary person, but many of the characters Page has played have been female. The main character of "Juno" played by Page was a female character and the term "herself" is appropriate in reference to the character notwithstanding Page's real-life gender identity.

(Admittedly, I didn't see Juno, but I think if the storyline had involved the main character being a non-binary teenager who becomes pregnant, at least one of the reviews would probably have mentioned that. In fact, in 2007, probably all of the reviews would have mentioned that.)

Nevertheless, my correction was rejected for the following reason: 

Reason Does not meet contribution guidelines.

Your contribution has been declined.Your submission conflicted with one or more of our policies as stated in our Biographic Data guide Please review these policies before submitting again. Thank you for understanding our position.

... which explained absolutely nothing to me.

I see two possibilities here, neither of which is favorable:

  1. The IMDb editors failed to read or understand the explanation I gave for the correction; or
  2. it is now IMDb policy that any gender reference to a character must align with the gender of the performer who played that character, and since Page now uses "they/their" pronouns, all the characters Page ever played must also be referred to by "they/their" pronouns, too.

If the latter, that policy does not seem appropriate. While most movie characters are of the same gender as their portrayers, not all of them are.

To take a famous example, Linda Hunt won an Oscar for Best Supporting Actress for playing a male character, Billy Kwan, in The Year of Living Dangerously. Do we have to say "Hunt played Billy Kwan, who finds herself in the midst of political upheaval in Indonesia"? Or when Tyler Perry plays Madea, do we have to say, "Tyler Perry played Madea, who learns that his granddaughter has been kicked out of her home by her husband"?

Or to take an example that involves a transgender person, Alexis Arquette played a male character in Pulp Fiction who is identified in the credits as "Fourth Man".  Are we supposed to say that "Arquette's character finds that she is unsuccessful in her attempt to kill two of the other characters"?

I should note that in the Elliot Page biography, there is a similar error which is even more incorrect (as far as I can tell from reviews), but I'm not going to try to correct it until this issue is clarified. The sentence in question says:

Page co-starred alongside Jesse EisenbergAlison PillAlec Baldwin, and Greta Gerwig in the Woody Allen ensemble comedy To Rome with Love (2012), and appeared in the thriller The East (2013), a story centered on a contract worker tasked with infiltrating an anarchist group, only to find themselves falling for its leader.

Whoever is first to post here why this is even more incorrect than the Juno sentence will get a "like" vote from me. (If nobody solves it within a few days, I'll post the answer in this thread.)

To summarize: could the staff please explain why my use of "herself" to refer to the fictional character in Juno was rejected?

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4 years ago

While I agree that female pronouns can be used to refer to female characters, I don't necessarily agree with all your conclusions.

To refer to a female character with a gender-neutral pronoun is not equivalent to referring to a male character with a female pronoun. When the antecedent of the pronoun is itself gender neutral ("an offbeat teenager", "a contract worker") it could be considered grammatically acceptable to use a gender-neutral pronoun, although it may be a broad usage of the "singular they".

Regarding The East, I think you are referring to the fact that the contract worker is played by Brit Marling, so "themselves" refers to her character and not Page's.

(edited)

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Peter correctly spotted the error in the description of The East; the character being referred to as finding "themselves" falling for the leader of the anarchist group is Brit Marling's character and thus should definitely be identified as "herself".

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4 years ago

Your correction to "herself" in reference to Juno seems to have been made.

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Thanks, Peter. 

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4 years ago

Thanks for bringing this up. Your observations have been brought to the attention of our content editors.

IMDb’s policies are regularly reviewed and evolve based on customer feedback, and the correct use of pronouns is one of several areas where we are looking to provide more guidance for users and contributors.