30 Messages
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896 Points
Name Particles, for Middle & Last Name. How to store them?
In the guidelines, this is the given example for 'Name Particles': "von Gritz, Hans (not: Gritz, Hans von)".
In the following two examples, both names have name particles for not just their last names, but also their middle names. However, currently they have both been entered and stored differently to each other on IMDb. This is confusing, and untidy. Which is the preferred input in such cases?
Al Saud, King Salman bin Abdulaziz --- https://www.imdb.com/name/nm2272498/
bin Sultan bin Abdulaziz, Bandar --- https://www.imdb.com/name/nm1747276/
I did ask this via the email system and was told it doesn't matter. In addition to finding out if that is correct or not, and confirming whether or not there is in fact a preference. I would also like to share, what I believe SHOULD BE an official input rule, in such instances. Here's my preferred formatting and its reasoning:
When inputting Names BEFORE submission (at this stage presenting as 'Last Name, First Name') and you are scrolling through, Name checking/proof reading, especially a longer list, as you are continuously referencing back and forth, it is easier to know you are consistently and ONLY looking through 'Last Names' (and associated name particles), irrespective of having to take into account whether the 'Middle Name' ALSO has a 'name particle'. This helps with the scannability and reading fluency, instead of the interruption due to the inconsistent, non-uniform formatting, of now having to pay attention for any Middle names (with particles) occasionally appearing first, as the 'Last Name', which you might just also, mistake for the actual 'last name' / overlook, when scrolling/skimming through.
I'm requesting, as both formats are currently being accepted, that as an example, "bin Sultan bin Abdulaziz, Bandar" is never stored as such, and "bin Abdulaziz, Bandar bin Sultan" should be the consistent & correct format, for storing names with Middle Name(s) that have a name particle, such as "Al Saud, King Salman bin Abdulaziz" has been stored. Thankyou.
MAthePA
2.2K Messages
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59.7K Points
2 months ago
Hi.
I agree that names should be properly separated in the database for sorting purposes, and perhaps official guidelines could explain this more. But the options suggested above are incorrect because they are not based on a deep knowledge of the cultural and traditional differences that exist between countries around the world.
Ideally, names should be separated into three parts: first name, last name, and everything else. But real world, if not limited by one nation view, dictates another algo: first name, and everything else. And "Bandar bin Sultan bin Abdulaziz" is a very good example here.
The particle "bin" means "son of", that helps to understand the tradition existing in Arab countries for naming. "Bandar bin Sultan bin Abdulaziz" means that his name is Bandar, and his father's name is Sultan, and his grandfather's name is Abdulaziz. We have two particles in use (and there may be more depending on other countries and traditions), but in fact there is no need (and it would be illogical) to devote separate fields for them -- because there are plenties of people with the name Sultan, and plenties of Abdulaziz, but much less people having father Sultan and grandfather Abdulaziz at once. So for the purposes of a database, only "bin Sultan bin Abdulaziz" is meaningful and, if you didn't understand before this moment, it is not a surname or a family name as expected by most European countries and the U.S. been raised from European culture and traditions.
One more example, Icelandic names [see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icelandic_name]. They mostly have first names followed by a derivative from father's or mother's name, which do not indicate the historic family lineage. But (!) only some people have first names followed by their family name.
The list of examples from different countries can be endless, but the only reasonable result is: for names we need two parts and one of them is the first name only.
And you know what? The first name category is also different depending on traditions. In some countries people have double first names... So the first name can include more than one word, and the middle names (European tradition) can be treated as part of the first name.
All in all, when submitting a new name, any IMDb contributor has the option to input a name not only straightforward (Bandar bin Sultan bin Abdulaziz), but also with coma to separate the first name from the rest (bin Sultan bin Abdulaziz, Bandar). But not all contributors understand they have the option. They also do not understand that when a name has been separated incorrectly (bin Abdulaziz, Bandar bin Sultan), then it should be changed via the "Name Correction" submission form by means of correct coma separator placement.
PS:
Coming back to the name "King Salman bin Abdulaziz Al Saud" existing in the base, it includes "King" that is a title, not a part of the name. He was not born a king, he became later. It would be much better if IMDb devoted a separate third part (field) for the titles which constitute the most known name of a person.
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