Kinderen voor kinderen is NOT a tv series

@Kristin​ Well, it seems then that Eurovision should also be corrected.

And via the Connections section, all titles that belong together can be found. Example: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1909354/movieconnections/?ref_=ttrv_at_dt_cnn#followed_by 

Please keep in mind that they are not the same. 

Eurovision:

2 episodes per year starting from 2004 https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0313343/episodes/?season=49
3 episodes per year starting from 2008 https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0313343/episodes/?season=53

@Marco​ IMDb deliberately CHANGED it from Separate TV Specials to TV-series this year, so it was an intended IMDb change from IMDb. 

What would be the advantage of having 46! different pages in stead of one with episodes?

You also then loose oversight over people recurring , and it makes it a lot more job to edit.

Also the  "Connections section": that does not always work properly, you need very experienced people adding the conextion eact year/followed by, and then it's a bingo at how IMDb adds it.

Sometimes the conextion/followed by page only points to the previous tilte and the next, other times, its a list of all, and this will varie each year depending on how the person adding the conextion writes it in the e-mail to IMDb, and how IMDb executes the email.

It's easy for a person to ad one episode, to add a new title each year and then list EVERY previous title in a mail to IMDb to get them to add the "followed by" each year, it's rare that people take the time or know how to. 

So removing it as a series will result in less data. And much more difficult for people to find all the info combined.

I just don't see any advantages?

@Marco​ 

Also your example link is a mess,

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1909354/movieconnections/

 some "episodes" ends up on "followed by" some ends up on "Version of", and some "episodes" is listed both as a "version of" and "followed by". 

@MAthePA​ Yes, in Eurovision some "seasons" have 1 episode, some 2, and some 3. Still don't see the advantage of having separate titles instead of a series with one episode each year.

@Kristin,

IMDb tries to satisfy the demands not only of fans, who may prefer one way or another to navigate between pages, but also of the entertainment industry (professionals) regarding the specifics of the production, and all this should be based on one of the main principles of IMDb -- factual data should be presented as close to historical development as possible.

Annual real-life events should generally be presented in the form of TV-Specials (sometimes mini-series), since they are not initiated by the entertainment industry. Simply put, the industry (broadcast companies, and sometimes commentators and journalists on their part) only provides technical support.

It is still a question whether it was worth combining Eurovision into one series page or not, but at least the industry is more involved in this song conquest.

@MAthePA​ 

I did not understand any of the logic in that. 

The entertainment industry are users in the same way as fans,

 when looking at the data,

and adding the data.

Actually when interacting with people in the industry they often have lesser knowledge about adding to IMDb then Contributors (exept for MAJOUR movie productions etc.) 

Often I also am the first one adding a title and then I see lots of people adding their data later on, because adding singel data is a whole other ballgame than adding a title form scratch.

If there is an annual TV-show with the same brand, logos, and it's determined that this is a regular event, there is always someone regular, comity/company etc behind this event making sure it follows the same rules/guidelines/traditions etc, I don't understand that that is not considered entertainment industry.

Anyhow, I'm not trying to be difficult here, I am trying to understand,

I just don't see the logic,

the main thing I am trying to understand, and why I am asking,

is what the advantages is to have 46 different titles than a series with 46 episodes? Because I can't see it.

@MAthePA​ The number of episodes for Kinderen voor Kinderen vs Eurovision differs, but it doesn't make much difference when it comes to the title type: https://help.imdb.com/article/imdb/discover-watch/how-do-you-decide-if-a-title-is-a-film-a-tv-movie-or-a-miniseries/GKUQEMEFSM54T2KT#

Both are not tv series and both started out as TV specials. Perhaps since 2008, Eurovision should be listed as TV mini-series as opposed to a TV special due to the number of episodes though.

@Kristin​ I don't know if it was a deliberate change by IMDb. After all, mistakes are being made sometimes. I searched, but couldn't find a post about this change. Do you happen to know if there is one?

To answer your question, I don't think it's a matter of (dis)advantages. IMDb being a database, it's a matter of facts. Eurovision is simply NOT a tv series and therefore should not be listed as such (just as the genre Horror or the director Steven Spielberg shouldn't be attached to it). Obviously, every person might have a slightly different definition of a tv series, but I honestly can't imagine there are people who consider Eurovision a tv series. That being said, this doesn't matter. What matters is IMDb's definition of a tv series (and of a tv special). As you can see here (https://help.imdb.com/article/imdb/discover-watch/how-do-you-decide-if-a-title-is-a-film-a-tv-movie-or-a-miniseries/GKUQEMEFSM54T2KT#) Eurovision is by IMDb's definition not a tv series but a TV special (and perhaps since 2008 a yearly mini series). 

By the way, I think these event shows can be best compared with the sporting events from this guide: https://help.imdb.com/article/contribution/titles/title-formatting/G56U5ERK7YY47CQB#

If the movie connections section doesn't work properly, it should be fixed so it does work properly. I fail to see why one section of the database (title types) should be, for lack of a better word, compromised because some other area (movie connections) doesn't work the way it should/could. 

Obviously, the same goes for the example I linked to. If there are mistakes on that page, it doesn't mean movie connections as a concept doesn't work, it means some updates are needed for that particular page. 

And I agree with @MAthePa that the Franchise keyword could also be useful for these type of (yearly) events.

FWIW, this discussion reminds me of people not being able to find the film The Snapper because it was originally released as part of a tv series and not as a standalone film: https://community-imdb.sprinklr.com/conversations/search?q=the%20snapper

I agree Eurovision is not a tv series. What's the difference between users and professionals. Do some get paid for editing the database.

@doublehappy​ I've never heard of anyone getting paid for adding data to IMDb.

https://contribute.imdb.com/czone

By professionals I mean people who work in the entertainment industry ( actors, directors, makup artists, producers, movie companies, TV companies etc. )

both them and fans add data and use IMDb.

Whether you personally call it a TV series or not is up to you, 

the discussion here is how the data is organized in the database, 

so it's easiest for the users to add/find/use the data.

Is it easier to go into 46 (or for Eurovision 71) separate listings or 1 for example.

I haven't seen a post about the Eurovision listing. I wouldn't have made the change, but I agree it's a bit different because it has more than one "episode" per year. A disadvantage is that some ratings and reviews for a previous "mini-series" must have been moved to an episode or deleted.

It has been confirmed several times by IMDb that they want annual shows listed as individual specials. I see that one of those times was when kristin asked about award shows nine years ago.

@Peter_pbn​

Yes, I did ask 9 years ago before adding an award show,

which is why I have experience and see The HUGE operation of adding a new title each year, instead of adding an episode.  

(which again will lead to people not bothering to add, I don't see any in this thread want to take on the job of creating 46 pages, 46 link connection's on each page, and repeat the same jobb EVERY year after, adding data/cast/crew/ from scratch etc and the end result will be worse for the users, since they can't then see recurring stars, who has participated several times, rating trend each year etc etc,)

Now after 9 years I am way more experienced using and adding data to IMDb, 

and I see the HUGE disadvantages.

And also since IMDb themselves changed Eurovision and the rutines actually as mentioned don't specify that annual TV shows must be TV Special. (and this show is not an award show btw). So again I don't see the Advantage of now splitting a title already existing into 46! different titles.

In the whole of this tread the only disadvantage someone has managed to think of is what happens to the votes when we change already existing listings.

And yes, Eurovision was merged, so votes could then be moved to the new episode, this is a split, so the main series votes will have nowhere to go. So even that is not an advantage. 

So I don't really see that as an advantage to split it.

Obviously you can advocate for changing the policy. However, starting to list a lot of specials as series would also involve a lot of editing.

@Peter_pbn​ Well technically there is no policy to change.

There is no policy that goes against either.

And then I am referring to the Help pages as the policy.

(Unwritten rules hard core users abide by is not policy,

personal opinions of long time contributors is not rules,

the community forums are not guidelines or policy etc, 

people adding things have to use the help pages,

we can not expect someone adding data to read thru 10 years of discussions for how to add things. )

Help pages say "Normally" so not absolute, and "These are only broad guidelines", also TV specials is only listed as they are the same as a TV Movie, and is to be used for things that last for 1 year, according to the overview table).

Just to be clear I am not advocating to changing existing data that is in the database, quite the opposite. 

Let people who add the data and work on the data each year decide for themselves,

since recurring TV Special or TV series is not a black/white question, it's subjective, not objective.

IMDb | Help

IMDb | Help

@Kristin​ I do some work as background and extra sometimes and I don't normally get paid so I wouldn't call myself a professional. Can't live off the wages .. lol

I know a lot of people who are extras and and none of them get paid. It's hard to make a living in the entertainment world. A lot of people just do it for the fun of being in a movie.

So I suppose you really mean actors and contributors but then both are contributors because very few get paid enough to call it a full time job, most work at other jobs like me.

I always liked being around movie sets, my mother used to take me when I was a young child. 

@doublehappy​ 

You asked "What's the difference between users and professionals. Do some get paid for editing the database."

So I answered that no, people do not get paid for entering/adding information/data to IMDb as far as I know, not whether you get paid for your work on a show.

A contributor is in this context someone who adds info to IMDb. Ref the link i added: IMDb Contribution: Home

@Kristin​ Yes I see, so there is no difference to professionals and users and both use the database.

Talent agents get paid when you sign up and then take a percentage when you are cast in a role.

But most of the time people I know don't get paid at all.

I was pointing out that not all actors are professionals as you said they were.

It's really hard to make a living as an actor. I suppose you know that.

I have done lots of jobs inbetween being on set, so as you can see it's not a full time job for a lot of people. 

Apart from that it is a lot of fun being an extra, you do get to meet a lot of people.

Anyhow, it's good now we have cleared up that not many actors are professionals.

Life on set is good and I love it, when I get it. ..lol

I don't know if you have been in any films at all, but if you have then you would know what it's like.

@Kristin​

"Can't really fint anything here that says a regular annual TV show can't be a TV Series."

It's not stated literally, you're right about that.

But in the first link, it's said that a TV Special usually airs in 1 or 2 episodes, just like Eurovision does, while a tv series airs in 4+ episodes, which Eurovision doesn't do. 

And in the second link, the sporting events (which I think is the best comparision of that guide for things like Eurovision) states that events should be either a mini-series or a TV special. The last example there is the One Off Event and that links to this title: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7994012 . To me, this makes it clear that (yearly) events should not be considered tv series. Here are all the UFC events, listed as TV specials and not TV series because they are considered One Off Events: https://www.imdb.com/search/title/?title=UFC&title_type=tv_special 

"I would think of it as a TV series, it's on TV, it's a regular thing from the same organisation, same logo, same concept, etc, so I would think TV Series. The same way American Idol is a TV series."

I have to admit that I'm very surprised that you consider something like American Idol and Eurovision both to be the same title types, but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. However as we've already established, both our opinions on this matter are irrelevant. 

"So it both says "Normally" so not absolute, and "These are only broad guidelines".

It's true that because IMDb wants to list all titles from all countries and all time periods, it's impossible not to make exceptions every now and again. Obviously, I don't see Eurovision as one of those exceptions. 

Also, I pointed out two guides and, for me, the combination of both guides makes it clear that Eurovision is an event and as such, should be listed as a TV special or, since 2008, a mini-series.

That being said, I think it would be useful if the Sporting events part of that guide would also explicitily state cultural events. Then it would be (even) more evident that Eurovision falls in that category. 

"It is no automated prosess for it, you have to send IMDb webmail, and they do it manually. "

I know. The movie connections could function better than it currently is, but as I said, that doesn't mean other sections should be compromised. 

"Besides, that is 1 title with that name, that differs from the series name,"

The reason I brought up The Snapper is that it is also a situation where some people don't know or disagree with the title type, but IMDb looks at the facts and lists the title accordingly, even though for some people that listing might be considered a disadvantage, as evidenced by the threads about them not finding it. 

@Kristin​ 

"The HUGE operation of adding a new title each year, instead of adding an episode.  "

That seems to be a bit, for lack of a better word, dramatic. It's a bit more work to add a new title instead of a new episode, but I wouldn't exactly call it a HUGE operation. 

"I don't see the Advantage of now splitting a title already existing into 46! different titles."

Aside from this particular case, do you mean that you would want IMDb to keep certain faults in the database if correcting it would take a lot of time and/or would mean a lot of titles would get a new/different listing? I feel a database should focus on having the facts straight, even if that means corrections need to be done that, in some cases, might be huge.

"Let people who add the data and work on the data each year decide for themselves,

since recurring TV Special or TV series is not a black/white question, it's subjective, not objective."

I think that's a bad idea. It might lead to Eurovision being listed as a TV series and, for example, Kinderen voor kinderen as different TV specials, while they should be the same title type.

If it's not clear whether something should be a certain title type, ideally a contributor should ask on this board. And if the guides aren't clear, ideally, they would be updated to be clearer. 

Yes that is a bad idea, Eurovision is not a tv series. Not that I know all that much about databases but it seems sensible to keep Eurovision as it is.

Like a circus, it travels around and every venue is different. My auntie was in a circus and she traveled around a lot.

Lots of big bold letters in this thread, on social media that means you are yelling at someone.

@doublehappy​

Venue is not an issue when we chose how to enter in the database, just like TV-series that takes place and/or are filmed at different places in each episode, that does not determine that at show is not a TV-series or not.

1. I notice that you write "Not that I know all that much about databases", may I ask how long time you have used and or edited IMDb yourself?
2. How many years have you watched Eurovision and used IMDb thereafter, so you have experience with the 2 different types of looking at the data? Before and after the change?
3. Because the discussion here is about how accessible the Data will be and how the data will be organised. It is not, simply if we should call it a TV-Series or TV-Spesial. Am I correct in assuming you opinion here is simply the name doublehappy? That you would  be happy if the name was "Annual-TV-Special" rather than "TV-series", because it is the Name and not the organizing of the data you are speaking about?

@Marco​ 

Hello again, and thanks for the discussion :-)

Trying to answer your questions her :- )

-----------------------------------------------

Q: "I wouldn't exactly call it a HUGE operation. "

A: I have done both, adding new tv-special each year, and adding new episodes to show’s, and I find the difference in time is HUGE. Just adding 46 links in the connection section each year is a big job, then comes everything on the first page, official sites etc etc, that have to be added each year instead, wait till it gets approved, then adding more data, it has to be done in several operations etc.  the logo picture to be added each year,  and then comes the recurring people that can't be added thru the existing list's, that have to be manually added, then comes finding the previous years to find the same descriptions, were they participants or contestants etc. etc etc.

 just look at the form for new title and the form for new episode, the number of items says it all.

Also adding a whole new title instead of an episode is a whole other ball game for regular users. With the level of prof and level of items needed to be able to add a new title is vastly different than adding an episode that only requires a date.

---------- 

Q:"It might lead to Eurovision being listed as a TV series"

A: Eurovision IS already listed as a TV series, IMDb changed it many months ago, FROM Tv Specials to TV series.

And yes I do find Eurovision to be in the same category as American Idol,  Dancing with the stars etc etc.

------

Q: "one off"

A: We are not talking about the sports routine, and anyhow "one off" is subjective,

you think "one off" means once a year, I do not,

I do not think a TV program with 113 episodes, that has the same format, and logo, and a continued organization/trademark etc behind it a "one off".

A TV funeral for a celebrity or 

A TV Fund raiser for a specific one time catastrophe

is a “one off”

----

Q: "explicitily state cultural events."

A: I think "cultural" is just as subjective, what you and I would call cultural is verry different. 

If a TV station makes episodes each Christmas with scripted acting, sketches and singing and guest being interviewed, a total mix. It's impossible to objective say if that is cultural or not.

------

Q: "IMDb to keep certain faults in the database "

"I feel a database should focus on having the facts straight"

A:

Agreed, 

BUT, here is where we have a different opinion, whether a movie is in color or black/white, is an objective fact.

People having a personal opinion whether to call something

 that is regularly on TV, a TV series or not

 is not a fault in the database. That is a subjective opinion.

According to the IMDb routines this is not "faults", so no, I don't think we should go over and change everything already in the database to either x or Y,

since this is subjective, and not objective.

Just like the Genres listings it is several places listed whether this is an subjective or objective.

https://help.imdb.com/article/contribution/titles/genres/GZDRMS6R742JRGAG?ref_=helpsrall#objectivesubjective

Quote IMDB help pages: 

"Objective Genres are not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts. Objective genres are hard coded to the set rules of our guidelines.

Subjective Genres are common in most modern films and may be influenced by viewer opinions, interpretations, points of view, emotions, and judgement. "

----

Q:"If it's not clear whether something should be a certain title type, ideally a contributor should ask on this board."

A: This board can’t decide over what subjective things are correct.

Technically there is no policy to change.

There is no policy that goes against either.

And then I am referring to the Help pages as the policy.

(Unwritten rules hard core users abide by is not policy,

personal opinions of long time contributors is not rules,

the community forums are not guidelines or policy etc, 

people adding things have to use the help pages,

we can not expect someone adding data to read thru 10 years of discussions for how to add things. )

Help pages say:,

“may decide to make exceptions for certain special cases”,

 it also says "Normally" so not absolute,

and "These are only broad guidelines",

also TV specials is only listed as they are the same as a TV Movie, and is to be used for things that last for 1 year, according to the overview table).

Just to be clear I am not advocating to changing existing data that is in the database, quite the opposite. 

Let people who add the data and work for free on the data each year decide for themselves,

since recurring TV Special or TV series is not a black/white question, it's subjective, not objective.

IMDb | Help

IMDb | Help

----------------------------------

Q: "that doesn't mean other sections should be compromised."

A: I don't see anything being compromised here, all the data is here, in an easier collected way to both view and edit.

--------------------------------------------------

@Kristin​ Why would you make fun of my name? I'm entitled to my opinion and not for you be like in charge and controlling.

What you wrote about me is not very nice thing to do. I'm very upset about that when I have done nothing to you at all.

@Kristin wrote : "Am I correct in assuming you opinion here is simply the name doublehappy? That you would  be happy if the name was "Annual-TV-Special"

@doublehappy​ 

I think something must have been lost in translation here, for I have not intended to make fun of your name, i just called you by your name "doublehappy".

I added your name, so that it would be clear to others that it was you that question was intended to.

I see that a comma is missing after "name", it should have been:

"Am I correct in assuming you opinion here is simply the name, doublehappy? "

I was talking about if your opinion is regarding the name "TV- series" vs" Annual-TV Special", and not about your name, sorry that the missing comma, made that unclear. 

If you read the whole text again in context it will be easier to see :-)

----------

This post is in the  "Data Issues and Policy disussions" section (as you can see at the very top)

so when you write that:

  "Not that I know all that much about databases", 

 and this is the very first post you participate in in this community, 

 it is natural to ask som questions so as to know your level of experience to know how to answer you. 

@Kristin​ I'm not interested in talking to you anymore. 

Bye.

@Kristin​ I agree there's a significant difference between adding an episode and adding a new title. I simply wouldn't call it HUGE, but that's just me :) 

About the definition of one-off: The part of the guide regarding Sporting Events strongly suggests that IMDb defines annual events as one-offs. 

Obviously, there are corner cases where it's debatable if something should be labeled cultural, but in general I think it's clear that titles with a lot of musical performances are considered cultural. 

IMDb defines what it feels like is a tv series. If a title meets the criteria, it should be listed as such. There will always be corner cases, but in those cases, ideally, IMDb should decide whether something is a tv series or not. Therefore, I don't feel personal opinion of contributors/customers should factor into it. Otherwise some titles would flip flop all the time because contributor A honestly feels something is a tv series while contributor B is convinced it's not. 

That all being said, I hope a staffer will soon respond on this thread with an update.

@Marco

I don't think you really understand my points about the subjective and objective data in the database, it's impossible to get this in black and white,

Just like with the genres, some is labeled "subjective" and some "objective".

TV-series is the same, as the written guidelines say "normally" "broad guidelines", TV -special is for 1 year,  etc., etc.

There will always be different opinions whether something is "one off" or not when there are multiple installments of the same concept, from the same organization.

Q: "Otherwise some titles would flip flop all the time because contributor A honestly feels something is a tv series while contributor B is convinced it's not. "

A: That was my point, users should not "flip" it all the time.  All the data is there whether you call it a TV special or TV series.

It's a waist of time for IMDb to convert it to 46 pages instead of 1, you loose the overview of the data in one place, and the person who made the entry may not then want to continue each year to add new data on the same concept, since it's now harder and the overview is lost.

All just to be able to change the name/label from TV-series to TV-special.

Totally ok that we disagree though :-)

I do wonder if this would solve your concern?:

Would you be happy if there was an additional label called "Annual TV special" in addition to "TV-series" ?

that allowed the data to be organized in the same way as "TV-series" is today with an "episode" for each year, instead of 46 separate pages, (which makes it impossible to have an overview and all the data collected under the same umbrella.)

(So you can just then change the label without splitting things up in 46 separate pages.)

@Kristin​ 

"I don't think you really understand my points about the subjective and objective data in the database, it's impossible to get this in black and white,"

I think I do understand your point, hence my saying "There will always be corner cases, but in those cases, ideally, IMDb should decide whether something is a tv series or not." and further upthread "It's true that because IMDb wants to list all titles from all countries and all time periods, it's impossible not to make exceptions every now and again. "

"That was my point, users should not "flip" it all the time."

Well, we're in agreement then here :) It seems the difference is that I feel this could be achieved by IMDb deciding what to do in corner cases while you want to let contributors figure this out on their own, which I think won't work in the long run and will (eventually) lead to flip flopping.

" All the data is there whether you call it a TV special or TV series."

I never said it wasn't :) 

"It's a waist of time for IMDb to convert it to 46 pages instead of 1, you loose the overview of the data in one place, and the person who made the entry may not then want to continue each year to add new data on the same concept, since it's now harder and the overview is lost.

All just to be able to change the name/label from TV-series to TV-special."

If something is considered to be a TV Special and not a TV Series by IMDb, I fail to see why the above issues matter. A correction is in order, whether or not it takes extra time for staffers and/or contributors or some people might not be able to find something (note that upthread, it has already been mentioned there are movie connections and keywords/interests to mitigate this) 

"I do wonder if this would solve your concern?:"

Well, in my opinion my concern can easily be remedied within the current set of title types :)

"Would you be happy if there was an additional label called "Annual TV special" in addition to "TV-series" ?"

For me (and for IMDb, see besides the example in the Sporting events guide also the following link: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt33552770/movieconnections/?ref_=ttrv_at_dt_cnn#follows ), a TV special can be annual and rather often, will be annual. Adding a new title type called "annual TV special" suggests a "regular" TV special can't be annual, which is something I don't agree with. 

But as you say, that's okay, we don't have to agree :)