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13 Messages

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368 Points

Tue, Apr 9, 2013 7:05 PM

Closed

John Charles Thomas listing usurped and renamed "Joseph Toner." Not a credible change.

There is a listing for the famous early American baritone John Charles Thomas (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0859060/?r...) that has been usurped by a woman who claims he is her grandfather and that he had a different name (several names, actually). She bases the validity of her claim on the fact that IMDb changed the Thomas account to reflect Toner. The name and photo are not alike, her story makes no sense, and she seems to be the only one in the world making this claim. Please revert the John Charles Thomas page back to reflect his name and his original photo. (Dr. Valerie Kaiser posted her claim at Mudcat.org, a music discussion site - http://mudcat.org/thread_all.cfm?thre... and several of us have been looking into her story. It frankly appears to be nuts. Though most people don't know him now, Thomas was a household name for decades after WWI. There are many videos of him, that Dr. Kaiser is staking a claim on on YouTube. A google search shows that she has been very busy posting this misinformation, but she is the ONLY person posting this information. http://bit.ly/XBvzlA Again, please restore John Charles Thomas to his full name and expunge the bogus Joseph Toner information. Thank you.

Responses

Champion

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1.9K Messages

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146.1K Points

7 years ago

Thanks for flagging this up and doing the legwork needed to nail this down.

As you say here:
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0859060/bo...

The Wikipedia article is decently sourced to things like The New Grove Dictionary of Opera and most obviously a book on him: John Charles Thomas, Beloved Baritone of American Opera and Popular Music.

Even if he were also known as Toner, it is clear John Charles Thomas is clearly the name he is known by, so this shouldn't have been renamed, before we get onto the fact that no where does anyone suggest this is his name.

The only real surprise is that they've not tried a similar game with Wikipedia, but perhaps the name change on IMDB is the first stage in this attempt, although they'll not very far, as it isn't considered a reliable source. I they do try it bump this thread and I'll sort it out over there too (it might need locking if they are persistent)..

13 Messages

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368 Points

7 years ago

Thank you! I work in a university research library. Digging up the facts on this comes naturally!

I also pulled up the New York Times obituary - here it is via the ProQuest citation:

JohnCharles thomas dies at 69; concert, opera and radio star. (1960, Dec 14). New York Times (1923-Current File). Retrieved from http://search.proquest.com/docview/11...

I posted the Wikipedia link partly to show that it is unchanged and to watch and see if she now tries to change it. It is easy enough to deal with her behind the scenes there. Now, to correct the mess she made over on YouTube. . .

13 Messages

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368 Points

7 years ago

I came back to see if there was any movement on the topic - I realize you folks are busy. I hope a few keystrokes to revert to the earlier version is all it takes. Thanks!

Champion

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1.9K Messages

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146.1K Points

7 years ago

Hopefully, staff will spot this.

Employee

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330 Messages

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40.2K Points

7 years ago

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. Could you please look at the page now (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0859060/) and let us know if there's still incorrect data on it (and if so, exactly what needs to be changed)?

13 Messages

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368 Points

7 years ago

It is still wrong in several spots - First, the main image is not Thomas, but the father of the woman who dreamed this all up.

Here is a link to an LA Times story with the John Charles Thomas birth and death and a younger photo than those two on IMDb. http://projects.latimes.com/hollywood...

Here also is his photo on a CD re-release of many of his shorter songs: http://www.classicalarchives.com/albu...

So, in answer to your question, the main photo needs to be deleted. The Birth and Death dates and the locations of his birth and death need to be corrected.

The correct John Charles Thomas information is birth, September 6, 1891, Meyersdale, Pennsylvania – death, of intestinal cancer, on December 13, 1960, Apple Valley, California. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Cha...)

Another site is helpful here (http://godgiftf8n.blogspot.com/2009/0...) This site has some great citations you might want to include. This page lists his birth year as 1889, but I think this is wrong. The liner notes on the CD I linked above says 1891.

His wife was Dorothy May Koehler. I linked to a photo of Thomas from the L.A. Times. This is only for comparison, I don't own the photo.

Thank you!

Champion

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1.9K Messages

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146.1K Points

Thanks for keeping on the case here. I did bump the thread over on the forum just to get your attention (no need to reply there).

13 Messages

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368 Points

I just followed a link that was posted elsewhere and landed on the same photo that I just posted in my response this afternoon. http://www.latimes.com/includes/proje... The photo of Thomas is under the name Joseph Toner (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0859060/ph...), with a link to the LA Times article. These two guys don't even look alike - it's such an odd story. The article needs to be linked to John Charles Thomas and the Toner page needs to be completely removed. Toner never was in a filmed performance, as far as I can find, he was a walk-on player in 11 Broadway musicals or plays.

2 Messages

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82 Points

7 years ago

This reply was created from a merged topic originally titled
Ignoring Law regarding the real name of a performer, which IMBD knows, as it is bad for AMAZON.


Amazon and the IMBD know full well the history of Joseph Toner and who he is. He changed Broadway and music more than any one person ever. He was too important and Catholic at the wrong time. He knew Ford was a Nazi sympathizer. FDR died and the game was up. His movies were destroyed. His creations ruined. The true wealth of his works left in small amounts and what he did with Gershwin or Berlin or anything not imortant to Rodgers/Hammerstein, well, it was never brought back. But it is in the Archives and it will be brought back and you will rue the day you denied who this man is. Ford only took his early works as much as that is. Not ONE opera is left. You know who he is and some woman comes along and complains so you will not use his real name? his STAGE NAME?
Then you are worthless. And liars and you deserve the suit that GE is going to get, or you can start to act like a real professional organization, rather than this coverup all these years later. There is no face for the disgust I have for you.

13 Messages

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368 Points

7 years ago

I just read this most recent post from Valerie Kaiser - I rest my case. This woman is unstable and is her own worst enemy. Please restore the John Charles Thomas account to reflect just John Charles Thomas. If you wish to create a Joseph Toner account for Ms. Kaiser to pour her nonsense into that might save the rest of the bright lights of Broadway her not-so-tender-loving attention.

The "real name" of John Charles Thomas was ALWAYS John Charles Thomas. I suspect the real name of Joseph Toner was always Joseph Toner. His daughter/granddaughter has dreamed up a fabulous story that doesn't have a shred of credibility. Please stop humoring her and just fix the account. Thank you.

1 Message

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86 Points

7 years ago

If anyone with discernment listens to many of the recordings on YouTube which are styled as "Joseph Toner" it will become evident one is listening to different voices. The claims of Dr. Kaiser dispute themselves. She claims Toner also recorded under the names Earl Wrightson and Richard Torigi. I'm not old enough ever to have seen John Charles Thomas, but I am old enough to have seen both Torigi and Wrightson, who were not the same man. Wrightson (like Thomas) was a baritone. Torigi was a tenor. Has Dr. Kaiser ever produced one single shred of evidence--verifiable by anyone other than herself--to back up her claims of a vast conspiracy to blot out the memory of Joseph Toner?

431 Messages

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26.1K Points

7 years ago

I have just now seen these postings and have located John Charles Thomas' passport application dated in 1922 with birth information affidavit by his parents showing his birth date as Sept. 6, 1890 (disparities with birth years isn't unusual with births prior to requirement for birth certificates). The application also has a photo of the 32 year old Thomas which clearly shows the same (though younger) face of the man whose photo Maggie Dwyer has posted here. I have also located California death record for him. I will see if I can get this information uploaded and updated on site. The photos of Toner need to come off Thomas's page. This whole incident is very odd.