bradley_kent's profile

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Wed, Nov 23, 2022 6:21 AM

In Progress

How about some action on the Keyword/Subgenre/Category Disaster-in-the-Making?

PLEASE, DO NOT MERGE THIS WITH ANY OTHER THREAD.

Just as we have a self-annointed, staff-adored keyword-expert, we are now in need of a subgenre-expert and a category-expert.

The keyword/subgenre/category problems have been particularly acerbated by (1) the refusal to remove the block on deleting or correcting the recent, supposedly  ”new and improved” subgenre keywords, and, now, (2) by the recent, non-inclusive offering of “new” categories that do not cover ALL of the various types of existing keywords.  (Yes, keywords have always been about much more than plot!)

The “Plot Detail” and “Other” categories are becoming “catch-alls,” with many promoting mistakes that will need to be corrected in the future.

Particularly bothersome is the “Subgenre” category’s drop-down menu, which is limited ONLY to the recent, supposedly “ new and improved” subgenres. This results in many legitimate subgenres being incorrectly deposited in the “Plot Detail” and “Other” categories.

Over the years, there have been MANY valid and recognized subgenres that CANNOT NOW be categorized  as a “subgenre.” Off the top of my head, these include denigrated subgenres life:  screwball-comedy, neo-screwball-comedy, claymation, dark-comedy, melodrama, soap-opera, neo-noir, docudrama, erotica, video-installation, video-art, mockumentary, stop-motion-animation, etc., etc., etc.  These are ALL subgenres, but, now, they CANNOT be categorized as such.

Please, unlock the block on subgenre keywords so they can be corrected OR deleted.

Please, revise and expand the drop-down menu of categories so they can reflect the truth. (This particularly includes “opening up” the “Subgenre” category to other long-recognized subgenres.)

Otherwise, there will be a profusion of mistakes, and keyword placement in categories will become a huge mess.

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15 days ago

Are these correct assumptions (and suggestions)?

ALL keywords with the "reference-to-" prefix should automatically be placed in the "Plot Detaill" category.

ALL keywords with the "-character" suffix should automatically be placed in the "Plot Detail" category.

ALL keywords that refer to ANY location should automatically be placed in the "Plot Detail" category.

ALL keywords that refer to any any nationality  or proper name or language should automatically be placed in the "Plot Detail"category.

ALL keywords that refer to a vegetable, animal or mineral should automatically be placed in the "Plot Detail"category.

ALL keywords that begin with "man-," "woman-," "teenage-boy-," "teenage-girl-," "boy-," " girl,-," etc. should automatically be placed in the "Plot Detail" category.

Others?

(edited)

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@bradley_kent​ 

The one assumption/suggestion on your list that I might disagree with is the first one:

ALL keywords with the "reference-to-" prefix should automatically be placed in the "Plot Detaill" category.

It is possible to have a title (aka name) of a film or show that refers to something else, without it being a plot point.

Of course, there are some other keywords for that as well, but it still doesn't mean that 100.0% of all "reference-to" keywords involve the plot.

title-is-a-reference-to-another-movie-title (2 titles)

title-is-a-reference-to-a-film (5 titles)

episode-title-is-a-movie-reference (1 title)

series-title-is-a-movie-reference (1 title)

episode-title-references-bible-verse (1 title)

title-refers-to-a-song-lyric (7 titles)

title-based-on-song (1025 titles)

title-based-on-the-bible (201 titles)

title-based-on-shakespeare (123 titles)

title-based-on-poem (108 titles)

title-based-on-nursery-rhyme (5 titles)

title-based-on-film (3 titles)

series-title-based-on-song (5 titles)

episode-title-based-on-song (98 titles)

episode-title-based-on-shakespeare (2 titles)

episode-title-based-on-nursery-rhyme (2 titles)

title-based-on-album (1 title)

etc.

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I was referring to keywords that begin with "reference-to-."  The ones you list would probably best be categorized as "Other."

(edited)

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@bradley_kent

I was referring to keywords that begin with "reference-to-."  

As was I. 

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@bradley_kent​ 

For example, a movie that gets the keyword "title-based-on-shakespeare" could also get the keyword "reference-to-william-shakespeare" and if solely the title (nothing in the plot) references Shakespeare, then both of these keywords would be properly classified as "Other" (not "Plot Detail"). 

This is why I say that not 100.0% of all "reference-to-" keywords always involve the plot. There are more ways to refer to people or other titles than just within the plot itself. 

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15 days ago

Keywords ending in "ism" present a particular problem.

Some automatically warrant placement in the "Plot Detail" category, like capitalism, communism, fascism, etc.

Others, which refer to a "style" of production, including literary and cinematic presentation, would currently seem to warrant the "Other" category or possibly the "Subgenre" category, like expressionism, impressionism, realism, surrealism, symbolism, absurdism, neo-realism, etc. 

ALL the "exploitation" keywords would currently seem to warrant the "Other" category, although some might argue that they are subgenres.  This would also include keywords like "psychotronic-," "b-movie," "independent-,"  "low-budget-," "experimental-," etc.

(edited)

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15 days ago

Interestingly, neither "the-future" nor "the-past" keywords are acceptable in the Plot Timeframe category. Humh?
 

(edited)

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15 days ago

So many Category mistakes are starting to happen.  "mockumentary" and "fake-documentary" are NOT Plot Details, but belong in the Subgenre category,

Invalid subgenre ... invalid suvgere ... invalid subgenre

WHEN the keyword IS a subgenre.

"black-and-white" is a Plot Detail?  (I thought that keyword was meant to be deleted long ago since that information is available elsewhere.)

(edited)

Bethanny

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14 days ago

Hi @bradley_kent-

 

Thank you for your feedback! Keyword categorization is a new feature, and we are learning and iterating from the initial set of subgenres that we released. We recognize that many keywords that could be deemed as subgenres are under the default category of Plot Detail for now. We very much appreicate all your suggestions and we will review them on a case by case basis.

 

We will be adding the following as subgenres:
screwball-comedy
melodrama-drama

 

We already have the following subgenres available:
dark-comedy
mockumentary-comedy
docudrama-drama
soap-opera-drama

 

We are reviewing the other subgenres that you suggested, and we will also look into creating new keyword categories. Thank you for bearing with us. In the meantime if the keyword has not been categorized yet, these can go in ‘Plot Detail’ if they directly describe the plot, else they can go into ‘Other’.

 

Cheers!

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14 days ago

It seems like a big mistake to default keywords to "Plot Detail" rather than "Other."  This is going to results in an onslaught of mistakes.

In defaulting to "Plot Detail" (which, logically, will have the MOST listings), you are making the eventual corrections more difficult since there will be so many more titles with that category that will need auditing.  "Other" will be the category with fewer titles, and that would facilitate eventual corrections.

(edited)

Champion

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Plot detail is the default in the sense that keywords that have not been categorized are displayed in the plot detail category (in the IMDb app). I don't think it is the default in the sense that the category is being automatically added.

(edited)

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@Peter_pbn​ You are correct. 

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13 days ago

The flood of category mistakes has begun.

In the holiday spirit, I just did an audit of the keywords for It's a Wonderful Life (1946), and found over twenty category mistakes.

Who would have thought that the following are (incorrectly) plot details:  based-on-novella, based-on-short-story, claim-in-title, co-written-by-director, cult-film, writer-producer-director, etc.?

Who would have thought that the following are (incorrectly) plot details rather than plot-timeframe:  between-war-period, interwar-period, year-1919, year-1928, year-1932 and year-1945?

Who would have thought that the following are (incorrectly) plot details rather than Other (until we get a category about production techniques): black-and-white (which shouldn't even be a keyword), wipe-editing-effect, etc.

Other needs to be the default rather than Plot Detail.

I am all in favor of the Categories (especially when they are expanded), but the "roll-out" of this addition has been terrible.

Someone needs to put there finger in the dyke before we are Noah trying to survive a devastating flood.  

Date/Time Summary
221125-172430-792200 2022-11-25 17:24:30 It's a Wonderful Life (1946)
Keywords -  22 items corrected

(edited)

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@bradley_kent​ 

Very good job on the categorization of keywords on It's a Wonderful Life. I reviewed your work and I agree with all of the categories you chose. 

I did delete two keywords from this title:

  • "between-wars-period" - the keyword "interwar-period" was already on there
  • "cult-film" - given how popular this movie is, it cannot be considered a "cult" movie. The definition of "cult following" from Wikipedia tells us in pertinent part that "A film, book, musical artist, television series, or video game, among other things, is said to have a cult following when it has a small but very passionate fanbase." Emphasis on "small." 

I like how you categorized various filmmaking techniques as "Other" keywords, since they don't involve the plot. 

I would wholly support creating a new category of keywords simply called "Filmmaking Techniques." It could be used for everything from camera angles, to flashbacks, to narration and voiceover styles, to special effects, to nonlinear timelines, to cliffhangers, to keywords like "film-within-a-film" (and possibly even including things like "amateur-film" and "independent-film," although those might also be classified as Subgenre keywords for lack of a better category). 

(edited)

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"one-day-timespan" is curiously ruled ineligible for the Plot Timeframe category?

underground-film is curiously placed in the Plot Detail category, while educational-film, experimental-film, etc. are placed in the Other category.

As I work on Categories, I am finding evolving mistake after evolving mistake.  Categories are chasing keywords to see which will have the most mistakes.  

While the intention of adding categories is admirable, its supervision (?) continues to be a disaster that will probably never be resolved without carefully auditing each and every keyword for correct category placement.  That number has got to be in the millions, and is ever growing.

(edited)

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@bradley_kent​ 

"one-day-timespan" is curiously ruled ineligible for the Plot Timeframe category?

That isn't curious at all. A timespan is very different from a timeframe. The former is how long the events in the title take place, while the latter is the time period when the title is set.

underground-film is curiously placed in the Plot Detail category, 

If you saw a title where "underground-film" was placed in the Plot Detail category, then it was placed there manually by another contributor. That keyword has not been categorized by staff as a Plot Detail keyword.

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Keep finding underground-film incorrectly categorized as a Plot Detail.

anti-cinema (or anticinema) is NOT a Plot Detail, but should be in the Other category.

There are many other Category mistakes appearing.  Category additions need better supervision.

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9 days ago

I am also noticing incorrect categorizations of various keywords, but what I am noticing is coming from contributors, not from IMDb staff.

In particular, vague, simple plot keywords like "life" and "young" are being added as "Other" instead of "Plot Detail."

I think some of the mistaken keyword categories may be added by bots, or at the very least, by someone who speaks English as a second language.

I am not sure what can be done to fix or prevent this, and either way it is not the end of the world. But I wanted to note that I am observing these errors too.

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7 days ago

Look at the misuse of the Plot Detail category on this title (for which I have submitted corrections).

The Haunted Curiosity Shop (1901)

Plot Detail
double-exposure
  •                                       Keep:
  •                                       Correct
  •                                       Delete
  •                                  
Plot Detail
early-cinema
  •                                       Keep:
  •                                       Correct
  •                                       Delete
  •                                  
Plot Detail
experimental-film
  •                                       Keep:
  •                                       Correct
  •                                       Delete
  •                                  
Plot Detail
gnomes
  •                                       Keep:
  •                                       Correct
  •                                       Delete
  •                                  
Plot Detail
special-effects
  •                                       Keep:
  •                                       Correct
  •                                       Delete
  •                                  
trick
  •                                       Keep:
  •                                       Correct
  •                                       Delete
  •                                  
Plot Detail
trick-photography
Add

    (edited)

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    Hm...

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    7 days ago

    Should not all the keywords with the "-character" suffix be placed in the Plot Detail category?

    Champion

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    The guide says they should be in Other. Perhaps character is a candidate for another category.

    Champion

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    @Peter_pbn​ 

    That has to be a mistake, right? Logically it belongs in the plot detail category.

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    U N B E L I E V A B L E

    Here are some keywords that I have found incorrectly placed in the Plot Detail Category:

    abstract film (a potential subgenre)

    action-noir

    all-male-cast

    background-music

    black-and-white-film (shouldn't even be a keyword)

    black-and-white-to-color

    black-comedy (should be dark-comedy as a subgenre)

    camera-trick

    character's-point-of-view-camera-shot

    color-tint

    dialogue-heavy

    directed-by-an-actor

    early-cinema

    electronic-music-score

    ensemble-cast

    forename-as-title

    hand-painted (which is a Production Technique on an Animated film)

    indie (terrible keyword)

    long-take

    male-name-as-title

    name-as-title

    neo-scewball-comedy

    original-story

    reverse-footage

    slow-motion-scene

    subjective-camera

    written-by-actor

    written-by-producer

    And this is just a sample.  

    The mess grows.

    (edited)

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    IMDb rules that "tragedy" is an "invalid subgenre"! Tragic.

    Ancient Greeks must be clamoring at Mount Olympus.  Hear the thunder? Zeus is not happy.

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    Of what genres is tragedy a subgenre?

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    Actually ... historically ... Tragedy is not a subgenre of any other genre.  The Ancient Greeks divided it into two  "main" genres: Comedy and Tragedy. (Hence, the masks of Comedy and Tragedy.) But ... with the passage of time, these two "main" genres have evolved into Comedy and Drama. As such, EVERY title in the Database could be called a Comedy or a Drama or Both.

    (Aristotle identified four types:  Comedy, Tragedy, Tragicomedy and Melodrama.)

    In ALL the Arts, there have been subsequent generic classifications.  

    While IMDb (for good or bad) clearly identifies its "acceptable" genres, IMDb's subgenres are a mess -- incomplete, overlapping, repetitious, redundant, and unacknowledging of previous pronouncements and simple logic.

    It seems as if someone(s) at IMDb decided that subgenres should combine IMDb's genres (not allowed, according to the guidelines), OR, use genres as a prefix or suffix, to "add on" to other words to create an ill-thought-out list of IMDb's "acceptable" subgenres.

    I addition, this list is extremely incomplete (and occasionally very subjective), and now, in Categories, so restrictive, that keywords which are obvious subgenres can only be placed in an incorrect Category -- usually "Other," but I have also seen them incorrectly placed in the "Plot Detail" category!

     

    This results in millions of mistakes, potential and already apparent.

    P.S. And don't get me started on the current restrictions on placing logical keyword in the Plot Timeframe category.  Again, mistakes are multiplying like bunnies.

    (edited)

    Champion

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    @bradley_kent​ 

    So tragedy is not a subgenre, yet you laugh off the idea of not categorizing it as a subgenre.

    If a genre or style term is not among IMDb's genres, and also not a subgenre of one of IMDb's genres, I find it natural to categorize it as Other, or to simply not categorize it.

    (edited)

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    I don't know WHERE you got the idea that I am trying to "laugh off" tragedy as a subgenre of Drama.  As I said, the main genres of Comedy and Tragedy have evolved into Comedy and Drama.  Personally, I would retain Tragedy as a genre, although, in applying the classic criteria, only a small number of titles would qualify (the Greeks, Shakespeare, a few others, but probably fewer than Film Noir).  Therefore, if you and IMDb wish, in IMDb's list of subgenres, Tragedy is apparently a subgenre of Drama.

    A bigger problem is the confusion of "tragedy" (a subgenre) and "tragic-event" (a Plot Detail).  Apparently, most people think that a title is a "tragedy" IF is ends in sadness or death, or has some kind of cataclysmic event.  "That's tragic" has apparently become a defining definition of what is a "tragedy" than what is a "tragic-event."

    (edited)

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    3 days ago

    "

    • "cult-film" - given how popular this movie is, it cannot be considered a "cult" movie. The definition of "cult following" from Wikipedia tells us in pertinent part that "A film, book, musical artist, television series, or video game, among other things, is said to have a cult following when it has a small but very passionate fanbase." Emphasis on "small." 

    This is just not true.  There are many popular and "large" titles that justifiably have the "cult-film" keyword.  It has nothing to do with a production having a "small" fanbase, but having an (over-) enthusiastic and dedicated one of "any" size.  Just look at the listings.

    Avatar? Top Gun? Titanic? etc. etc. etc.

    Wikipedia is not "the end all and be all."

    (edited)

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    "Avatar? Top Gun? Titanic?" I'm not sure why any of those would be considered a cult film, but I'm sure there are at least two dozens fans of each who have memorized every single line of dialog, so depending upon how many multitudes of fans have verifiably done exactly that, those movies could be examples of cult blockbuster films, kind of like Star Wars. Connoisseurs of pop culture often speak of "overrated" and "underrated" material, but what about over-watched, over-memorized, frequently-reenacted, frequently-cosplayed, frequently-analyzed, over-memed material despite the passage of time? Yes, it could be a question of proportion, but as always the problem is verification. For the examples named, personally I don't remember anything more that the basic plots, the main characters (Jake/Maverick/Rose), the musical scores, key concepts, key special effects and key emotional moments (comedic or tragic parts), so I couldn't precisely quote any of them, whereas Star Wars is a whole other story for me.