Genre List Manager: Here we go again!

Why does this continue to be a problem? Here’s another Western being denied the Drama genre: 250307-001255-005000 Track Contribution 2025-03-07 00:12:55 "Laramie" (1959) Genres - 1 item added P.S. Yes, resubmit, but please answer the question: Why does this continue to be a problem?

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Ozzy

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10 months ago

Hi @bradley_kent, I've looked at your contribution and can confirm it was declined because no evidence was provided to support that this title should have the Drama genre listed alongside the Western genre. Whilst these two genres can often coexist, this isn't always the case. For example, the AFI lists this title as a Western only: https://catalog.afi.com/Film/25995-LARAMIE?sid=f0f980ce-3d5f-4c2b-822a-4d6c166d28cc&sr=0.16412337&cp=1&pos=0 Furthermore, looking at the title's plot, although dramatic elements exist in the conflict and murder mystery, they serve to support the Western narrative rather than being the primary driving force of the story. If you are able to provide an explanation as to why the Drama genre should be added to this title, we advise you to do so in a re-submission. Please also add your re-submission reference number to this thread so I can personally monitor it through processing for you. Thanks!

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Peter_pbn

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"For example, the AFI lists this title as a Drama only" -- you mean Western

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10 months ago

Ozzy

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Thanks @Peter_pbn, I've amended the text.

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10 months ago

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bradley_kent

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AI Overview for Laramie: Primary Genre: Western Secondary Genre: Drama Apparently, you missed the discussion and decision back in 2023. (Col even contributed to this discussion and decision.) Westerns can have Comedy and/or Drama as genres. Check the Advanced Search, and you will see the multitude of titles correctly handled this way. Western IS NOT a standalone genre. Check it out. You might also want to check the many recent reports on this thread about the same issue.

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10 months ago

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Ozzy

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Hi bradley_kent, I'm aware of the discussion you're referring to. As I said above, these genres can often coexist, but that does not mean every Western title should have either of those additional genres, especially not as a general rule of thumb. If that were the case, nearly every title on IMDb would have the Drama genre, for example. Focusing on this title and its plot, whilst there may be dramatic elements (as most films have), summaries of the film suggest that this is a classic, straightforward Western, featuring conventional Western plot devices. None of which emphasizing particularly strong dramatic elements that would justify Drama as even a secondary genre classification. Therefore, the sole classification of Western would give viewers the clearest expectation of what to expect prior to watching the film. Cheers!

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10 months ago

bradley_kent

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This is a retreat from the 2023 discussion/decision. Logically, not “nearly all,” but “most" titles on IMDb SHOULD have Drama and/or Comedy as a keyword. There are, after all, super genres. As I have often said before, a possible improvement would be to list Comedy and Drama at the end of the otherwise alphbetical listing of genres. This, of example, would result is a title having genres like Western Drama rather than Drama Western. (If I remember correctly, this was a concern of Col’s.) Apparently, your definition of "a classic, straightforward Western” is one with “conventional Western plot devices,” “none of which emphasizing particularly strong dramatic element.” If they don’t emphasize “dramatic” elements, what DO they emphasize? “Comedic” elements. High Noon, Stagecoach, Shane, etc. are Western Dramas with “particularly strong dramatic elements," whether you like it or not. One needs to distinguish between Dramas, Comedies, and Comedy Dramas. “Blazing Saddles” is a very different kind of Western from “The Searchers”! “The sole classification of Western would give viewers the clearest expectation of what to expect prior to watching the film” is one of the most inaccurate statements I have read on IMDb. Additional, correct genres would, of course, be “more clearer” and, would, admit it, be the more honest and truthful reporting and representation of the reality.

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10 months ago

bradley_kent

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Other genres, like War, Crime, Musical, for examples, usually also have Drama and/or Comedy as a genre. The policy was established back in 2023 that Westerns could also have the Drama and/or Comedy genres. It clearly established the distinction between a Western Drama and a Western Comedy. Otherwise, it is just a “mish mash” devoid of logic and clarity and factual information. Not only is this policy not being practiced, but most of the Drama genres that you are accepting for Westerns DO NOT have supporting explanations. The result is overwhelming inconsistency. The problem, therefore, must reside within the subjective opinion of the Genre List Manager(s). Many Western titles have had the Drama genre accepted in the past, then rejected, then accepted again, and then rejected again. And, the ones that do have supporting explanations are not consistently processed. A TV Western, for example, may have Emmy and/or Golden Globe nominations and wins in Drama categories, and yet they are denied the Drama genre. Are you only using AFI to corroborate genres? That catalog is very incomplete. If the AFI catalog is the ultimate decider, there are potentially millions of mistakes in the IMDb database.

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10 months ago

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Ozzy

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Hi bradley_kent, I would like to first clarify that policy decisions are always subject to change, and also suggest that this is not a retreat from any previous decision you're referring to. As discussed then, the Drama and Comedy genres *can* coexist with the Western genre, but not *always*. Furthermore, IMDb does not acknowledge "super genres" as you have stated above. Genres and subgenres are assigned to titles on IMDb as per their relevant guidelines listed on our Help Site. To answer your question about the emphasis of particularly strong dramatic elements, it is generally accepted that all titles have dramatic elements, but this does not make all titles a Drama. Westerns can of course have dramatic elements, but these elements can be synonymous with Western titles, and therefore do not require the additional genre classification of a Drama title. That said, the Comedy genre should absolutely be added to titles where comedic elements are prevalent. Your example of "Blazing Saddles" and "The Searchers" is a good example for why Comedy is needed to distinguish the two Western titles, but as mentioned above the issue here is that the Drama genre does not *need* to be applied to every Western title, especially when drama is implied through typical Western story tropes etc. I do understand your frustration with inconsistencies in the application of genres to these titles, and would advise you to highlight these inconsistencies clearly in any contributions you make to correct or add any genres. I will pass on your feedback about the inconsistency you're seeing, and ask our processing teams to take additional steps to prevent this when reviewing any relevant submissions. In regards to any examples where a title has received nominations/wins in Drama categories, please include this information in your contributions so our team can verify these genre additions. Thank you for your understanding.

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10 months ago

bradley_kent

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And, yet, and, still, The Searchers (1956) DOES NOT have Drama as a genre because you incorrectly declined it -- several times! Unbelievable! P.S. I never said that IMDb acknowledges Drama and Comedy as "super genes." Whether IMDb acknowledges it or not, this is historical fact. Instead of denying this, maybe IMDb should report the truth. Check history . And, if AFI is the final arbiter, there are hundeds-of-thousands of mistakes on IMDb -- maybe even millions. AFI covers only a sample of the titles currently in the IMDb database, usually just American films with a few in languages other than English, no TV series, etc. AFI is a very limited corroborating source.It I, after all, the AMERICAN FILM Institute.

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8 months ago

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bradley_kent

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Bump, again, although, if the past is any indication, it will probably not get a response

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5 months ago

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bradley_kent

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10 months ago

So, the policy established in 2023 has apparently been destroyed. I can’t say “completely” because contributions are being processed in an inconsistent manner that defies logic and sanity. Some contributions are being accepted while others are not. There seems to be no “rhyme no reason” at play here. It is vey irritating. I now have over 150 genre submissions that have not been processed correctly. I am a longtime, prolific contributor, and this nonsense is leading me to “the breaking point.” I go back to before Amazon purchased the website! Please, check the many “Genre List Manage” postings that I have posted on this thread, and see that the problem extends throughout the genres. Back in 2023, I spent hours, weeks, months correcting this problem. Now, that CONTRIBUTED work has been ruined. This is an insult and affront to a dedicated contributor. This posting is a formal grievance, and I would appreciate an official response,

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Michelle

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321.9K Points

10 months ago

Hi bradley_kent - I completely understand your frustration, and I want to emphasize how much we value your data contributions and insights throughout your time as a contributor. As we discussed, while many films feature dramatic elements, it’s crucial that genres are assigned based on the primary characteristics that define the film, in line with our genre guidelines. In this case (and many others), "Western" as the primary genre more accurately captures the essence of these films, rather than adding "Drama" as a secondary genre. I know you’re passionate about genre classifications, and I truly appreciate the effort you've made to expand these discussions. Our goal is always to ensure the most accurate and helpful information for our users. In cases where you believe the Drama genre is a fitting accompaniment to the Western genre, I encourage you to include supporting evidence and an explanation to help provide full context for our team reviewing the submission. In the meantime, I’ll ensure your feedback is shared with the relevant team for further consideration of the inconsistencies you've mentioned, as well as a review of potential improvements to our current policies.

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bradley_kent

1.7K Messages

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10 months ago

First, genres should report and reflect the observable reality. That is most possible from a study or viewing of a title. (I see at least one, often two or three films a day, and, at 84 years of age, that runs into the hundreds of thousands.) Second, IMDb’s genre definitions and decisions may not allow that. Third, there is a terrible inconsistency among IMDb’s genre list managers as to HOW genre decisions ae made. As an experiment, I submitted Drama as a genre for over sixty Charles Starrett Westerns. All but three wee accepted: 250312-021204-429000 Track Contribution 2025-03-12 02:12:04 The Durango Kid (1940) Genres - 1 item added 250312-011021-504000 Track Contribution 2025-03-12 01:10:21 Galloping Thunder (1946) Genres - 1 item added 250312-002836-474000 Track Contribution 2025-03-12 00:28:36 The Kid from Broken Gun (1952) Genres - 1 item added Curiously, is the exclusion of The Durango Kid (1940) a joke? Starrett played that same character in many subsequent titles where Drama was accepted as a genre. Some Genre List Manages seem very resistant to listing Drama as a genre for Western TV series, even for series that were nominated for and /or won Emmys and Golden Globes in the Drama categories. The Big Valley and Bonanza have both Western and Drama, as genes, BUT Wagon Train and Gunsmoke only have Western. Makes absolutely no sense.. Fourth, supporting materials (other than a review or two) are often not available, especially on older and less-well-known titles. What IMDb considers acceptable supporting material is elusive and unrealistic and sometimes even impossible. The AFI catalog, of examples is very limited and certainly incomplete. And, then, thee is the problem of acceptability. Why, IMDb doesn’t even accept the BFI. Example: 250311-213234-249000 Track Contribution 2025-03-11 21:32:34 The Innocents (1961) Genres - 1 item added How is this NOT a Thriller? Did the Genre List Manger even LOOK at the explanation? Five, the vast majority of titles will have more than one genre. Purists will be at a loss when it comes to genres. Secondly genes should be listed with pimary genes (and often are). Many of the great Westerns directed by John Ford, Henry Hathaway, Anthony Mann, Budd Boetticher, etc, are as much a Drama as they are a Western. Some of the Westerns of Randolph Scott, Alan Ladd, Audie Murphy, etc. have both Drama and Western as genes, while the deserved submissions of Drama as a genre for others are confusingly denied. My main concern is that this problem was being addressed back in 2023, and much clarity resulted. Sadly, much of that conscientious and time-consuming and CONTRIBUTED work has been destroyed. Was this due to over zealous Genre List Managers who did not know about the previous discussions and decisions? Was it a misunderstanding of the genes, themselves? Was it other contributor(s), with a different agenda, who made these destructive changes? What?

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bradley_kent

1.7K Messages

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28.3K Points

10 months ago

The absurdity of the inconsistency are astounding.. Conquest of Cochise (1953) gets both Drama and Western as genes, but adding Drama as a genre for Taza, Son of Cochise (1954) is denied. War Paint (1953) gets both Drama and Western as genres, but adding Drama as a genre for War Arrow (1953) is denied. Arizona Territory (1950) gets both Drama and Western as genres, but adding Drama as a genre for Colorado Territory (1949) is denied. Pony Express Rider (1976) gets both Drama and Western as genes, but adding Drama as a genre to Pony Express (1953) is denied. Star in the Dust (1956) gets both Drama and Western as genes, but adding Drama as a genre for Stars in My Crown (1952) is denied. Black Hose Canyon (1954) gets both Drama and Western as genes, but adding Drama as a genre for Border River (1954) is denied. (They’re back-to-back Universal-International-Joel McCrea titles.) Gunfight at the O.K.Corral (1967) gets both Drama and Western as genes, but adding Drama as a genre for The Gunfight at Dodge City (1959) is denied Lone Texan (1959) gets both Drama and Western as genes, but adding Drama as a genre for The Lone Texan (1956) is denied. “The Big Valley” (1956-1959) and The Big Country (1958) get both Drama and Western as genres, but adding Drama as a genre for The Big Land (1957) is denied. Stagecoach (1939) and even the tv vision, Stgecoach (1986) get both Drama and Western as genes, but adding Drama as a genre for Stagecoach (1966) is denied. You get the idea. I could go on and on…

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bradley_kent

1.7K Messages

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28.3K Points

10 months ago

This is a really obtuse point of view. If adhered to, Film-Noir titles should NOT have Drama as a genre, Musical titles should NOT have Comedy as a genre, War titles should NOT have Drama as a genre, etc. The decision back in 2023 was to have Westen titles treated in the same way as other genres since there are differences between a Western Drama and a Western Comedy that need to be objectively acknowledged--just like there are differences between a Crime Drama and a Crime Comedy, a Musical Comedy and a Musical Drama, etc. IMDb also seems very reluctant to add Drama as a genre for TV Western series, even with a explanation: 250316-202709-589000 Track Contribution 2025-03-16 20:27:09 "Wagon Train" (1957) Genres - 1 item added 250316-202551-086000 Track Contribution 2025-03-16 20:25:51 "Gunsmoke" (1955) Why are Westerns being treated in a very different way from other genres? P.S. You, and IMDb, may not want to admit that Drama and Comedy are "super genres,” but they are, whether you like it not, or whether I like it or not. As I have said before, genres began with the ancient Greeks, and have evolved, and will probably continue forever, even though you and I will not. Ask any beginning, child dramatics student, and one of the fist things learned is the Greek masks of Comedy and Tragedy.

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bradley_kent

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28.3K Points

10 months ago

The Silver Whip (1953) Take the Western elements out of a Plot Outline, and this is what you get: "Frustrated with the lack of opportunities in his hometown, young Jess Harker plans to leave, but a sympathetic coworker persuades his boss to give Jess a better job.” Sure sounds like a Drama to me. And, you can do the same with a Plot Summary. 250321-053537-083000 Track Contribution 2025-03-21 05:35:37 The Silver Whip (1953) Genres - 1 item added Or: Plot outline for The Badlands (1958), with Western elements excised: "Released from prison, ex-killer John McBain wants to go straight while ex-robber Peter Van Hoek seeks revenge, and their destinies eventually converge.” Oh, wait: The Badlands (1958) was a remake of The Asphalt Jungle (1950), which is a CRIME DRAMA! 250315-233555-854000 Track Contribution 2025-03-15 23:35:55 The Badlanders (1958) Genres - 1 item added Note: This comment was created from a merged conversation Link : https://community-imdb.sprinklr.com/conversations/data-issues-policy-discussions/genre-list-manager-try-this/67ddfa056e10775c8b7970c0 Title : Genre List Manager: Try this

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bradley_kent

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10 months ago

Please explain, specifically: How is Drama accepted as a genre for “Shotgun Slade,” and NOT for “Laramie”? 250323-043702-063000 Track Contribution 2025-03-23 04:37:02 "Laramie" (1959) Genres - 1 item added 250323-043516-864000 Track Contribution 2025-03-23 04:35:16 "Shotgun Slade" (1959) Genres - 1 item added Is there any rational reasoning going on at all? Note: This comment was created from a merged conversation Link : https://community-imdb.sprinklr.com/conversations/data-issues-policy-discussions/genre-list-manager-im-begging-you/67e08fe7b7ace5002413fc79 Title : Genre List Manager: I’m begging you...

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bradley_kent

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28.3K Points

10 months ago

Re the famous John Ford-John Wayne cavalry trilogy -- Fort Apache (1949), She Wore a Yellow Ribbon (1949) and Rio Grande (1050 -- how is Drama accepted as a genre for Fort Apache and Rio Grande, and NOT for She Wore a Yellow Ribbon? 250323-202845-018000 Track Contribution 2025-03-23 20:28:45 She Wore a Yellow Ribbon (1949) Genres - 1 item added Please explain, specifically.

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bradley_kent

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10 months ago

Most untrue statement on this thread: "the sole classification of Western would give viewers the clearest expectation of what to expect prior to watching the film.” MORE information always helps when wanting to know what to expect.

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bradley_kent

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10 months ago

WHAT is the “accepted solution”?

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Michelle

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10 months ago

Hi bradley_kent - We have moved all your recent genre posts under this single thread for consistency so that all the genre submission issues you raised are easily available under the same thread. I appreciate all the examples you provided where you have observed an inconsistency, and I have raised these with the appropriate team for visibility and review. In the meantime, I also observed within some of your submissions that sources (like BFI) were mentioned but no supporting links were included. While a text explanation is extremely helpful, we also require the source link. Going forward when submitting evidence, please be sure o also include the relevant source links.

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bradley_kent

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The Goggle Search AI Overview is a great source for genre corroboration. It, in fact, has made me revise and/or delete genre submissions. Give it a look.

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10 months ago

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bradley_kent

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10 months ago

The inconsistency is what is so consternating! Look below: some were accepted, while others were denied. There is no discernible patten. The guidelines seem to change for one title to another. Does it all depend on the whim of the processor? Submitted Updates x Reference Date/Time Summary 250326-165858-859000 Track Contribution 2025-03-26 16:58:58 Dallas (1950) Genres - 1 item added 250326-165517-012000 Track Contribution 2025-03-26 16:55:17 Springfield Rifle (1952) Keywords - 1 item added, 31 items corrected Genres - 1 item added 250326-164522-223000 Track Contribution 2025-03-26 16:45:22 The Hanging Tree (1959) Genres - 1 item added 250326-164146-659000 Track Contribution 2025-03-26 16:41:46 Man of the West (1958) Genres - 1 item added 250326-161320-303000 Track Contribution 2025-03-26 16:13:20 Pawnee (1957) Genres - 1 item added 250326-160755-688000 Track Contribution 2025-03-26 16:07:55 Man from God's Country (1958) Genres - 1 item added 250326-160317-451000 Track Contribution 2025-03-26 16:03:17 Gun Duel in Durango (1957) Genres - 1 item added 250326-155709-763000 Track Contribution 2025-03-26 15:57:09 "The High Chaparral" (1967) Genres - 1 item added 250326-155031-673000 Track Contribution 2025-03-26 15:50:31 "Have Gun - Will Travel" (1957) Genres - 2 items added 250326-154731-751000 Track Contribution 2025-03-26 15:47:31 "Laramie" (1959) Genres - 1 item added 250326-154208-529000 Track Contribution 2025-03-26 15:42:08 "The Rifleman" (1958) Genres - 1 item added 250326-015738-576000 Track Contribution 2025-03-26 01:57:38 "Broken Arrow" (1956) Genres - 1 item added And, yes, there seems to be a prejudice against adding Drama as a genre for Western TV series.

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bradley_kent

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Problem with such a long thread. This one got accidentally posted in the wrong position.

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10 months ago

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bradley_kent

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10 months ago

The inconsistency is what is so consternating! Look below: some were accepted, while others were denied. There is no discernible patten. The guidelines seem to change for one title to another. Does it all depend on the whim of the processor? Submitted Updates x Reference Date/Time Summary 250326-165858-859000 Track Contribution 2025-03-26 16:58:58 Dallas (1950) Genres - 1 item added 250326-165517-012000 Track Contribution 2025-03-26 16:55:17 Springfield Rifle (1952) Keywords - 1 item added, 31 items corrected Genres - 1 item added 250326-164522-223000 Track Contribution 2025-03-26 16:45:22 The Hanging Tree (1959) Genres - 1 item added 250326-164146-659000 Track Contribution 2025-03-26 16:41:46 Man of the West (1958) Genres - 1 item added 250326-161320-303000 Track Contribution 2025-03-26 16:13:20 Pawnee (1957) Genres - 1 item added 250326-160755-688000 Track Contribution 2025-03-26 16:07:55 Man from God's Country (1958) Genres - 1 item added 250326-160317-451000 Track Contribution 2025-03-26 16:03:17 Gun Duel in Durango (1957) Genres - 1 item added 250326-155709-763000 Track Contribution 2025-03-26 15:57:09 "The High Chaparral" (1967) Genres - 1 item added 250326-155031-673000 Track Contribution 2025-03-26 15:50:31 "Have Gun - Will Travel" (1957) Genres - 2 items added 250326-154731-751000 Track Contribution 2025-03-26 15:47:31 "Laramie" (1959) Genres - 1 item added 250326-154208-529000 Track Contribution 2025-03-26 15:42:08 "The Rifleman" (1958) Genres - 1 item added 250326-015738-576000 Track Contribution 2025-03-26 01:57:38 "Broken Arrow" (1956) Genres - 1 item added And, yes, there seems to be a prejudice against adding Drama as a genre for Western TV series. Some get it. Most don’t.

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bradley_kent

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10 months ago

To save you time, here are the five titles from the above list that you are refusing to add Drama as a genre. Why? Specifics? 250326-164522-223000 Track Contribution 2025-03-26 16:45:22 The Hanging Tree (1959) Genres - 1 item added 250326-155709-763000 Track Contribution 2025-03-26 15:57:09 "The High Chaparral" (1967) Genres - 1 item added 250326-155031-673000 Track Contribution 2025-03-26 15:50:31 "Have Gun - Will Travel" (1957) Genres - 2 items added 250326-154731-751000 Track Contribution 2025-03-26 15:47:31 "Laramie" (1959) Genres - 1 item added 250326-154208-529000 Track Contribution 2025-03-26 15:42:08 "The Rifleman" (1958) Genres - 1 item add

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