Chockys's profile

41 Messages

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700 Points

Saturday, May 27th, 2023 12:46 AM

No Status

-1

Between "artist" and "person"

Hello. A few days ago I had an... talk? discussion? nevermind, an exhange of ideas with IMDb's staff about the credits of singers and bands in music videos. From my point of view, I told them, there is a thick line between "artist" and "person"; i.e., Michael Jackson. When Michael filmed "Thriller", "Billie Jean", etc., he is "Michael Jackson" as artist, not as person. Otherwise is when Michael did could interviews for the media or documentaries as "This Is It", where he besides to sing he talked about himself, her music, how he prepared concerts, his thoughts about a specific theme, and others things. The point is that in a music video (filmed on studio or a live concert) a singer/music band are just singing, no more. Singing and acting as singers, in deed. They are in their job, in their musical carrier, and therefore credit them as "Self", to me, is wrong. I think Self is an appreciation reserved when any artist talks and exposes (never said better) himself/herself/themselves as person, beyond the singing. I commented it to the IMDb's staff thinking that this would improve their policies, and IMDb suggested to me expose it in the community to know the opinion of the people. It seemed to me a good idea to know at first if my way of thinking is right or wrong. After all, I have nothing to lose for questioning it. What do you think about it?

Champion

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7.4K Messages

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276K Points

1 year ago

Chockys: I think I understand your point in general, but if so I think IMDb has already handled part of this in the way you want.

For many of Michael Jackson's music videos, such as "Thriller", "Billie Jean", and others, he appeared in a fictional, scripted scenario and thus was acting rather than appearing as himself. However, if you look at his IMDb page at https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001391/ you will see that his music videos are almost all listed in the "Actor" section of his page rather than the "Self" section. (Not necessarily every one of his videos, but almost all of them.) He is listed as playing a character named "Michael Jackson", not listed as appearing as "Self".

In fact, even in videos such as "Rock With You" (see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5X-Mrc2l1d0 ), he is listed as playing the character "Michael Jackson", even though that particular video has no real "acting" involved nor any fictional scenario.

***

On the other hand, suppose that Michael Jackson, or any other singer, appeared in a music video which consisted solely of actual concert footage presented in nonfictional documentary style. If we decided that the singer should not have that in the "Actor" section of his page, should it appear in the "Self" section? Absolutely yes. "Self" appearances apply to all nonfictional appearances in film, television, etc. where the person can be clearly seen. It doesn't matter whether the person talks about their life and career in that appearance.

Suppose there had been a Grammy Awards telecast where Jackson was merely shown sitting in the front row of the audience but never said a word -- that would be definitely eligible as a "Self" appearance by IMDb standards. Similarly, if Jackson had given a performance on the Grammy Awards where all he did was sing one of his songs but did not speak any other words, that would be just as much a "Self" appearance. A person shouldn't need to "talk and expose himself/herself/themselves as person, beyond the singing" to get a "Self" credit on IMDb. If we started to impose that as a future policy, we would probably have to delete a lot of data on IMDb that is correct under the current policy.

41 Messages

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700 Points

@gromit82​ I didn't forget to reply you, gromit. I tell you: time ago (I don't remember how much), I was checking about AC/DC, and I found in some of their music videos that they were not credited as "AC/DC" but as "Themselves" (i.e. Let There Be Rock) while in others they are as "AC/DC, AC · DC, Ac Dc" (Thunderstruck, etc), it made me doubt about how to credit singers/bands in music videos, hence his thread. Specially because Let There Be Rock is a music video in its own right, I don't understand why they are credited as "Themselves", it seems to me wrong.

About Michael Jackson and other singers and music bands, I agree with it. It's like Miley Cyrus: in her music videos is like a character, different from her as person, it seems to me.

About your last paragraph, honestly I have to say that I never had thought on it of this way. Thanks for made me see it.

Champion

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7.4K Messages

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276K Points

Chockys: Part of the issue may be that there is more than one title in IMDb called "AC/DC: Let There Be Rock".

AC/DC: Let There Be Rock (Music Video 1977) at https://www.imdb.com/title/tt9367912/ is a video for that one song featuring the band members performing in a church. That is a scripted, fictional scenario as can be seen at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3f2g4RMfhS0  and the band and its members are correctly listed on IMDB with Actor roles (as AC/DC, as Bon Scott, as Angus Young, etc. -- not as themselves).

AC/DC: Let There Be Rock (1980) at https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080321/ is a concert film with actual documentary footage of the band in concert. For this title, the band and its members have "Self" credits, not "Actor" credits. The IMDb plot outline says, "Filmed coverage of Australian band AC/DC's '79 appearance in Paris intercut with quasi-fictional interludes", but if the majority of the film is properly considered documentary footage, then the use of the "Self" description here appears to be appropriate. (I haven't seen this film.)

So, overall, I believe the use of Actor vs. Self credits for these two titles is probably correct as it is.

Nevertheless, there may be other titles listed incorrectly on IMDb. If you find any other music videos where you believe that a musical artist has been mistakenly credited as "Self" instead of "Actor"/"Actress", please go ahead and submit a correction along with an explanation such as "This is a scripted music video with the artist performing in a fictional scenario, and should be listed as a Self role rather than an Actor role." an Actor role rather than a Self role." (Edited)

I hope this helps. Good luck!

(edited)

2.5K Messages

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69.2K Points

1 year ago

There are obviously many ”borderline” cases with music videos, since e.g. some music videos are more-or-less shot live on stage (e.g. Bon Jovi, Bruce Springsteen etc). Meaning, that they’re taken from the actual concert.

But we still have to see the bigger picture and IMDb has set the guidelines where the people in music videos are ”acting”. It’s a good compromise.

41 Messages

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700 Points

@eboy​ Sorry by my delay to reply, I was busy. That's the point, eboy: "IMDb has set the guidelines". And I agree with them, but not completely. When I was teenager I learnt a valuable lesson that I never forget: "any judicial ruling it subject to review". Or citing Carl Sagan to express it in another words, "the sacred truth (of science) is that there are no sacred truths". It's good to question ourselves and our rules/laws/guidelines to sure if they are right, and improve them if they don't. A little bit of discrepancy is good for diversity, and I needed to express certain doubts about this  particular subject. I agree also about these borderlines cases you mention, hence the importance to me for being so accurate as be possible between "self" and the other.

PS: I hope didn't disturbed, and sorry if I didn't explained it good (I'm dyslexic, always I have troubles to express as I want and I am forced to check myself to prevent mistakes and bad writing).