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Champion

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1.9K Messages

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146.1K Points

Thu, May 2, 2013 3:23 PM

15

Ratings: Give the regular voter weighting to the regular reviewers

This was suggested by Surendra Mohan but needs its own thread as it could be very useful:https://getsatisfaction.com/imdb/topi... there is a concern that the weighting given to regular voters is being used for evil by a number of users by adding 1 star votes to films with a small number of votes, that they presumably think has a suspicious voting pattern, hoping to "correct" for any possibly "vote stuffing":https://getsatisfaction.com/imdb/tags... highlights a problem with the system - the weighting "rewards" people for being able to hammer in as many votes as possible. While a lot of the regular voters are film and TV buffs merrily consuming media by the bucketload there is a small minority abusing the system, either just chasing the Top 1,000 Voter status (which you can see when you check your votes, even if you don't get a badge for it) or because they think they are some kind of champion, protecting poor old IMDB from nasty vote stuffers (even if I suspect that the algorithm already corrects for this, so the regular voter weighting leads to a double whammy downgrading of the weighted averageI believe that the weighting is still important, as it gives the votes of the most knowledgeable voters more significance which would help give a consistency to the ratings of films. So I wouldn't want to just get rid of the weighting but the score bombing is a problem that needs fixing.As the title says, the suggestion is to give the weighting to Top Reviewers or regular reviewers (the equivalent number people with the highest number of reviews, in the way the regular voters seems to be a larger group than the Top 1,000 Voters, even if it is the latter than gets flagged up on the voting breakdowns, which allows us to see if the 1 stars are coming from regular voters). This would have the effect of:* Rewarding the people who take the time and effort to write reviews explaining their ratings.* Making these votes visible through the person's review history, which has the effect that it can keep people honest (if, for example, someone tried to game the system to get their weighting back by adding in reviews copy and pasted from elsewhere, it' be easy enough to spot and report) - as I've argued for other suggestions:https://getsatisfaction.com/imdb/topi...* It would also remove the incentive for people to just hammer in these 1 votes - it no longer gets you the weighting and no longer has as much impact in cases of perceived vote stuffing.So win, win, win - the triple winner.Some have suggested only allowing people to rate films when they review them (as is done on Amazon) or at least only have them count if you have a review but I don't think that'd be very useful here (it'd be no more help in addressing the score bombing than this suggestion), it would cause a riot from users, it'd undermine the idea of the wisdom of crowds that powers the IMDB rating and it might actually make vote manipulation easier (as we see from the score bombing, in most cases you can only influence a score when the votes are low).There are a few things that need to be fine-tuned:* Should the weighting apply only to ratings where they have also added a review? or:* Should the weighting apply to all of the ratingsHowever, I'm sure staff can figure that out - the former would encourage more reviews but the latter would make the weighting work better if the aim is to try and get more consistency in the voting across a range of film and TV. Personally, I'd be fine with the second option, but if there was evidence of abuse it could be switched to the second one.

Responses

4 Messages

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168 Points

8 years ago

Yes!!!!!

Champion

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13.5K Messages

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413.5K Points

8 years ago

This is a great idea. I will have to think about the details to refine the idea.

One possibility I've considered suggesting is that users can only rate a film 1 or 10 if they write a review. If the review is simply random text, other user could report the review and have the rating and review deleted.

Champion

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1.9K Messages

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146.1K Points

Interesting idea, but I suppose all this would do is make people post 2 and 9 stars instead ;) It might end up slightly skewing the results and I wonder if film-makers will come on here complaining that their fans now can't vote 10 for their films because they are the very best thing ever!!!

29 Messages

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2.4K Points

"One possibility I've considered suggesting is that users can only rate a film 1 or 10 if they write a review."

I don't like this idea. IMDb Registered users can cast a vote (from 1 to 10) on every title in the database. If you make something like that, nobody will use IMDb anymore. Just you should replace Top 1000 voters with Top 1000 Reviewers.

3 Messages

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202 Points

This is all very, very frustrating for us, our film dropped half based on these weird changes. It has NOT been released yet either and our score went from 8.5 to 4 in one day with no new votes...very, very frustrating.

Champion

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4.6K Messages

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236.3K Points

It changed after votes hit 100, which is when "weighting" now kicks in. It just didn't show until it refreshed on the page. It would'nt change without that vote moving from 99 to 100.

3 Messages

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172 Points

7 years ago

Top Reviewers -- Excellent idea!

* Weight toward Top Reviewers (or number of reviews a voter has written)

* Also weight toward the length of time a voter has been and IMDB member. Then we know they didn't just create an account to vote for one film.

* Do NOT assume that votes are padded either high or low, as you can't know that, and it's unfair when there's no vote-padding.

Champion

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1.9K Messages

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146.1K Points

Yeah, I suspect part of the problem is they adjust for vote stuffing, then someone puts in a 1 vote to adjust for vote stuffing - the two combined, plus the weighting of the Top Voter and it throws the whole system out. It is all combining to make a mess - changing it to Top Reviewers would not only remove the weight of these 1 votes, but it'd remove any incentive to do it. So it might be the vote stuffing weighting could stay, but put them all together and the system falls apart for films with low numbers of votes.

Champion

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4.6K Messages

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236.3K Points

7 years ago

Heaviest weight to those that pay a small fee...just throwing it out there as a way to kick butt over those throwing fake 1's out there.

And, yes I've had a couple beers...

Champion

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7.5K Messages

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255.5K Points

7 years ago

I disagree because I'm not a regular reviewer.

7 Messages

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562 Points

7 years ago

I love the idea. It seems the fairest compared to anything else. It's a reward and compliment for people who take the time writing reviews and are serious cinephiles, and it would be easier to determine whether a voter has watched the movie or not. I don't understand the complaints of the few nay sayers and their abusive remarks regarding a new system for voting, especially now with the changes - in particular this Bilal individual who replied to a comment of mine in another thread that my movie is very bad etc. - not because he has seen it, because he hasn't, but just because he can't stand the thought of having to "allow" the average score. It's not like people suddenly compare the little films with the big ones! We understand it's a completely different league. You can see that on the amount of voters. It's the same with any other product. I take a product with a thousand or more reviews way more seriously than one with a handful. I also don't understand the weird need to be a Top 1000 voter and troll films in order to make that happen - what kind of deranged power trip is that? lol

Champion

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1.9K Messages

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146.1K Points

Yes, while my other suggestion to fix the weighting issue has been negated by developments:

https://getsatisfaction.com/imdb/topi...

I think this still has legs.

As you say, it not only becomes more difficult to spam votes onto films (especially the 1 star voters, who seem to work through lists hammering on votes - I suspect some not only haven't seen the films but may not even visit the film's entry) and partly removes the incentive (yes some people are sad enough to want to chase the Top Voter status to get more weight for their votes) but there are other checks and balances - it becomes obvious if someone is just adding filler to a review in order to hammer out cookie cutter reviews in order to get a Top Reviewer status and people have caught reviewers out copy and pasting other people reviews, which can then be reported.

Champion

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4.6K Messages

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236.3K Points

Yes, it's still relevant because this new change only affects the view while a film has low vote total. It's still a good idea overall.

Champion

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1.9K Messages

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146.1K Points

Good point.

7 Messages

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562 Points

Not to display votes till there are 100 accumulated would be a way to go, but then a lot of films will never get there. Maybe blockbusters and low budget and rather unknown films should be judged in different categories, then people like Bilal or whatever the name was can't complain about the new system. It could be done by simply giving the stars a different color. If there would be a color system in place then people would understand immediately the differences and the trolls don't need to get their panties up in a bunch. Let's say the big blockbusters will keep the yellow stars. Smaller indie films with low vote count could be red and shorts could be blue. We can even add green for documentaries.That prevents people from comparing scores cross-category and should satisfy everybody's concerns.

4 Messages

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214 Points

I like your idea - change the star color. Like you said, we can't compare big blockbusters and smaller films or shorts.

7 Messages

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562 Points

Maybe we should put it in the suggestion box, well, make it a separate thread as an idea. I think Emperor should do this. I'm on IMDB for over 7 years but new to this get-satisfaction bb. Emperor would have more people being interested in taking a look at the suggestion and discussing it. :)

Champion

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13.5K Messages

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413.5K Points

7 years ago

Emperor,

I've liked your idea since you suggested it. It addresses a fundamental flaw with the current Top 1000 voters, providing an incentive to simply vote for a film rather than watch and thoughtfully rate it.

In addition to the Top Reviewers, we may also wish to consider the Top Contributors as part of that group. It would be reasonable to expect that someone who spends time to research, update and correct the data in IMDb would also rate films with due diligence.

Champion

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1.9K Messages

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146.1K Points

I've liked your idea since you suggested it.


Although, strictly speaking it isn't my suggestion - I just reposted Surendra Mohan's idea as it seems a good one.

Not having ever posted a review (which I will have to rectify) I don't really have a dog in this fight, which is why I can be a little more subjective on this.

In addition to the Top Reviewers, we may also wish to consider the Top Contributors as part of that group. It would be reasonable to expect that someone who spends time to research, update and correct the data in IMDb would also rate films with due diligence.


Yeah I'd be up for that (again never having troubled the Top Contributors slot, and if not this year then I never will, I don't have a dog in this fight either) - they are clearly know their onions and would be expected to provide a carefully considered vote.

If so it might be an idea to reduce the weighting, as you would be doubling the number of people given weighting (although what about the crossover between the two groups?) - this actually might be also considered an argument for this, as it does seem like the weighting given to Top Voters might be a little too much (I think another idea was to reduce the weighting for Top Voters, and this would have the benefit of also doing that).

Champion

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7.5K Messages

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255.5K Points

7 years ago

Terms like "regular voters", "top voters" and "top 1000 voters" seem to be thrown around as if people know which votes are weighted. I don't know how the weighted ratings work, or whether they work as intended, but here is IMDb's own statement on the purpose of the weighting:

"IMDb publishes weighted vote averages rather than raw data averages. Various filters are applied to the raw data in order to eliminate and reduce attempts at 'vote stuffing' by individuals more interested in changing the current rating of a movie than giving their true opinion of it."

According to this, the intention is not to weigh a narrow group of voters higher than others, but to filter out abuse. One sure consequence of weighting votes by top reviewers is that you leave thousands of voters out of the weighting who use the voting system as it was intended.

Champion

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13.5K Messages

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413.5K Points

pbn, I've quoted this phrase frequently:
"IMDb publishes weighted vote averages rather than raw data averages. Various filters are applied to the raw data in order to eliminate and reduce attempts at 'vote stuffing' by individuals more interested in changing the current rating of a movie than giving their true opinion of it."
I do not advocate weighing the votes from Top 1000 voters any more than any other regular user. I do, however, advocate changing the criteria for who IMDb considered a Top 1000 voter to reduce the incentive for voting titles to gain that status.

I would hope that IMDb filters out votes from user who have unusual voting patterns, such as assigning a large percentage of 1s and/or 10s.

Filtering data has the advantage of excluding outliers from the distribution. However, excluding data from very small data sets can lead to non-sensible results.

Champion

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7.5K Messages

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255.5K Points

The top 1000 voters are the voters who have voted for the most titles, but IMDb have said before that this specific group is given no special weighting in the voting averages.

7 Messages

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562 Points

7 years ago

I don't know if you already read my idea about the color system in one of my replies - what I was saying was that maybe blockbusters and low budget and rather unknown films should be judged in different categories, then people can't complain about the new non-weighed system for little votes films. It could be done by simply giving the stars a different color. If there would be a color system in place then people would understand immediately the differences and the trolls don't need to get their panties up in a bunch. Let's say the big blockbusters will keep the yellow stars. Smaller indie films with low vote count could be red and shorts could be blue. We can even add green for documentaries.That prevents people from comparing scores cross-category and should satisfy everybody's concerns.

Maybe we should put it in the suggestion box, well, make it a separate thread as an idea. I think Emperor should do this. I'm on IMDB for over 7 years but new to this get-satisfaction bb. Emperor would have more people being interested in taking a look at the suggestion and discussing it. :)

Champion

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1.9K Messages

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146.1K Points

I think Emperor should do this. I'm on IMDB for over 7 years but new to this get-satisfaction bb. Emperor would have more people being interested in taking a look at the suggestion and discussing it. :)


Well it is nice of you to say so (although looking through my suggestions doesn't really support that ;) ) but really it is about the quality of the idea and how many people like it, not the person who started it. So go for it.

7 Messages

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562 Points

I did it! Baaahhhh, I'm scared... I'm not feeling in a controversy mood right now, I hope people will like it :) https://getsatisfaction.com/imdb/topi... ... nervous...

Employee

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330 Messages

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40.2K Points

7 years ago

I'm marking this idea as 'under consideration' because there isn't a better choice in the system but the truth is that since we do not disclose if, how and when we make changes to the weighting system, even if we do something like this we probably wouldn't say that we did :-)

Let's just say that all good ideas about improving the rating system are carefully weighted (no pun intended) when we make changes.

Champion

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1.9K Messages

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146.1K Points

Say no more, nudge, nudge, wink, wink.