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112.5K Points

Thu, Jun 25, 2020 9:05 AM

2

PS: Movies That Deny the Question of Skin Color

Intro:

We're talking about movies that show up that the question of skin color or race fades in the contemplation of the character or characters - at least in the movies' conclusion. [b]Which of them is your favorite?[/b] (If you don't know any of them, please pick the one you are most interested in). Please tell us here.

Rules:

Just movies rated higher than 7.0/10. But as you can see on the list I worked on, I do amens on movies that are rated than 6.5/10 or higher, if the subject fits very good! No animees or animated, or documentations. Not just black/white, asians and natives welcome.

List: https://www.imdb.com/list/ls080620466/

Poll:


Responses

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125.7K Points

3 months ago

Doesn't that mean any anti-racist movie?

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3 months ago

No it doesn't. It goes way far beyond. When you look at "12 Years a slave", it is a very good anti-racism movie. But I want movies, where the social environment was teached a lesson about racism. Like in "The Green Book". Where the driver learned about his guest and was a friend after. In Amistad, the courtroom learned about Mende and his people and learned respect about the strong leader and helped them to go back to their families. In 'Dances with Wolfes' Dunbar learned about the natives lifes and respect for life in general. Something like that. :D In 'Hidden Figures', the people around the "hidden figures" learned respect for the matematic geniuses. There was no further question about it.

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It's about a general principal. That's why I took 'Enemy Mine' on the list.
The little boy isn't an alien. He is just a little alien boy, but Davidge shows
respect and teaches him to be a Drac.

That's a little similar when Ghandi in 'Ghandi' teaches a sinner to educate a boy
(I guess it was a boy of whose father he killed) like a muslim, which he him self
wasn't.

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45.9K Points

3 months ago

I'm not sure what you intend by the word "deny".

What I would like to see is a poll about movies that portray so called "People of Color" (as well as LGBT & other minorities if you wish) as regular, multi-dimensional characters who are not defined by their minority status; and where their minority status is not the over-arching theme of the film.

I'll use an example from a TV-series, just because it's the first example that comes to mind.

The Arrowverse has become increasingly a platform for SJW propaganda, with characters constantly ranting about their being oppressed for being black / some other non-white race / gay / trans / alien / whatever.

I remember when the character of John Diggle was introduced in Arrow (2012). Here was an interesting, multi-dimensional character who happened to be black. He was so popular, that the character was eventually added to the DC comics. Never once did Diggle rant about "how he is oppressed as a black man." 

I'm obviously not advocating the inclusion of silly TV shows, you want to do movies. But I'd like to see movies with characters like Diggle on the list. 

Will Smith, Denzel Washington, Morgan Freeman & Halle Berry have done a number of good movies in this vein.

Edit: I just looked at your list. "Crimson Tide" is an excellent example of what I am talking about.

Many of the other titles are quite the opposite.

Champion

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224.9K Points

Barbara Ann, with all due respect...
What I would like to see is a poll about movies that portray so called "People of Color" (as well as LGBT & other minorities if you wish) as regular, multi-dimensional characters who are not defined by their minority status [...] The Arrowverse has become increasingly a platform for SJW propaganda, with characters constantly ranting about their being oppressed for being black / some other non-white race / gay / trans / alien / whatever.
These two quotes have a centuries-old logical contradiction between them. You want deep characters, but you only want them confined to a set of problems, ideas and plots which is safe to digest and which will not hit too close to home. Essentially, first world problems. When cinema was bound to that rule, masterpieces were produced in spite of it, rather than because of it. Ironically, situation was mostly the same for both communist and capitalist worlds. 

Well, surprise, whole world is now close to home. Problems dealt with in the CW's Arrowverse (while a simplified, sci-fi version) is something that is going on in the streets right now. Whether you like it or not, art, even in it's factory/entertainment mode is reflecting the situation in the world. And the situation is that problems that were ignored for centuries are now in the forefront. You can't ignore them just because they're 'less interesting'. You should not proclaim a positive the fact that oppression is rarely addressed.  

You toss in a word SJW combining it with propaganda like "SJW" is something inherently wrong. SJW means "social justice warrior". While "warrior" part is an addition specifically to make whole thing look more aggressive (a manipulation, very blatant one, just as abbreviation itself being there to forget what the words actually mean), in what wretched world we live in that you view "social justice" as something negative? Just because situation is slightly better people should not be quiet about problems, which are still there. That what USSR was  always about - after long periods of oppression (which were there every now and then) people were mostly happy to live in a slightly better environment, with some of their rights reinstated.That is what you now want for the whole world, ironically thinking that the left want that. Not that many leftists in the US actually understand repercussions of that ideology at its worst, though; and the oppression it brings on any concievable level.

Should I be surprised, though? The world being such a mess that we can't have one day this year without news looking like a Michael Bay- or Roland Emmerich-directed disaster movie. We live in a dystopia. We live through post-apocalypse, not on the brink of it. 

And all you want from characters is being interesting without complaining about that. Well, it's an interesting world, to be honest. Just not a good one.  

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I don't think we need a character to be too vocal about his problems, I like the "show but don't tell" approach in a film with maybe the 'ranting' part left for a well-timed speech or the emotional climax I don't know... I would rather trust the viewer's intelligence and let him do the complaining. 

"Dog Day Afternoon" is a remarkable example, this is a film about a bank robbery gone horribly wrong and turning into a media circus... but then it reaches some unexpected depths when you know the motives of Sonny.  Not sure Lumet made this film to serve the "transgender" cause but the film sure did... through two three-dimensional characters who didn't need to be played like militants in disguise.

It's interesting that some of the best political movies are from directors who don't care about politics, this is why I prefer Kusturica to Gavras.

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45.9K Points

I totally love those Roland Emmerich and Michael Bay films.


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ElMo:
I think there are enough of these kinds of polls around. If you want to make another of them, just do. I want to highlight movies that clearly speak out, what everybody would decide for them selves, not let the message stay "in the shadows". No mistakes, no misunderstandings. A clear message without disagreement ! But if you want I can insert an negating option. :)

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Barbara Ann:
This is not about LGBTQ+
Maybe I would make a PS about that thematics sometimes. If there are movies about LGBTQ+ that fit for my idea, I would put them on the list, but It's not mainly LGBTQ+, it's mainly about racism. "Deny" means that the movies clearly leave out the question if the color of the skin matters. By character play and at least shown clearly in the conclusion of the movies. That Michael Bay ad Emmerich movies are not fitting to the subject. There is not racism as a subject in them.

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Breu,

My post was a reaction to the exchange between Barbara and Nikolay, nothing to do your poll.

Yes, there've been many polls on the subject and you know pretty well this is not the kind of polls I suggest.

That said, there have been many polls about racism as well and to be quite honest, I didn't see how your poll was different.

Not a quality judgment of course... 

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Sorry, ElMo.
Seems I did get that wrong. My bad. ;D

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No problem ;)

Champion

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15yearsIMDber aka ElMo, while I more or less agree, saying that Emir Kusturica doesn't care about politics is absurd. He's very political both internationally and locally. 

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10.2K Points

3 months ago

DIGGER'S CHOICES:

1.)"12 ANGRY MEN(1957)";
2.)"A TIME TO KILL(1996)";
3.)"AMISTAD(1997)";
4.)"CRIMSON TIDE(1995)";
5.)"DANCES WITH WOLVES(1990)";
6.)"ENEMY MINE(1985)";
7.)"GLORY(1989)"; &
8.)"IN THE HEAT OF THE NIGHT(1967)"

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123.5K Points

3 months ago

Enemy Mine, because I will always go for the seemingly cheesiest option available.

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108.4K Points

3 months ago

I not sure about how this movie fits with your premise; it either the perfect or worst one for this list?
The Human Stain with ANTHONY HOPKINS and NICOLE KIDMAN.

Synopsis

The story is told by Nathan Zuckerman, a writer who lives quietly in New England, where Coleman Silk is his neighbor. Silk is a former professor and dean of faculty at nearby Athena College, a fictional institution in the Berkshires of western Massachusetts. Silk is accused of racism by two African-American students over the use of the word spooks, using the term to describe their absence from the classroom (like ghosts) rather than in the racially derogatory sense. The uproar leads to Silk's resignation. Soon after, his wife Iris dies of a stroke, which Silk feels is caused by the stress of his being forced out of the college. Silk begins a relationship with Faunia Farley, a 34-year-old local woman who works as a janitor at the college and is illiterate. Silk is criticized by feminist scholars at the college for this. It is slowly revealed through Zuckerman's musings that Silk is an African-American who has been "passing" as a Jew since a stint in the Navy. He completed graduate school, married a white woman and had four children with her. He never told his wife and children of his African-American ancestry. As Roth wrote in the novel, Silk chose "to take the future into his own hands rather than to leave it to an unenlightened society to determine his fate"


I think it is significantly underrated, I rated it an 8 and thought is should be high 6 or low 7 on IMDb, but because it was a bit controversial and didn't live up to the book got knocked down a bit.

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Thank you for suggesting, urbanemovies.
I don't remember proper about that movie. But I know, I've seen it and was impressed at the time I saw it. It must been 15 years, since I saw it. I'll consider it later. Maybe over the weekend.

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urbanemovies:
Ok, I know what impressed me. It was the confession of Kidman's character to the raven. That was cinematically strong. But the self-pityness of Coleman in his younger ages was soo cheesy. The hate of his brother at the end, the quitting mother, some other scenes. And then in the future Anthony Hopkins - the perfect bad white guy - as a black man? No that didn't fit. Sorry, but his movie doesn't fit for the poll at all. That's not the kind of movie, I'm searching for. Maybe you know a better.

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108.4K Points

I like the timeliness and how the list focuses on skin color as it relates to the narrative. But, I am not sure what the question is asking and left a bit confused.

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Ok, it just has a 6.2/10. If it would have been an overwhelming portray of a winning black person that changed his environment, I would have taken it on the list. But the main character is a boxer. Boxers are fighters because of their inner nature. But he signs the military papers as white. So he denys his black skin. Ok, he is a person of mixed parentage, but at the end he loses big by losing his mother, his brother, his job, his wife. I guess that must be a terrible movie for black people. Further ... Anthony Hopkins doesn't look like a man of mixed parentage. He is pure white and nothing other. He is a great actor, but this casting was bad. I guess there would have been some other actors, looking more like the young guy, which really looked like of mixed parenthood. This movie sucks by not feeling authentic when I watch it. Just the scene with the raven ... I know now, why I forgot it. I don't feel any touch of similarity between the old aged Coleman Silk and the younger Coleman Silk.

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I disagree, the fact is lily white is perfect.

It is both shocking when the reveal is made Plus, the fact he denies his heritage and in the end losing everything and is accused of racism is a bit of karma. I totally buy that he was able to pass as white and genetics or a genetic mutation created the scenario in the first place. I am usually harsh on movies, but I seem to bucking the trend on this one, as most critics and movie goers rate this slightly above average.

I also highly recommend other projects based on Philip Roth novel's, especially  Indignation (2016), American Pastoral (2016)  and  The Plot Against America (TV Mini-Series) (2020). As a group they tend be both under seen and underrated.

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8.3K Points

3 months ago

Seems too much of white savior narratives to me.  An ironic title, then.  Might as well include The Blind SideDangerous MindsDriving Miss DaisyGran Torino and Avatar while you're at it.

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IMDbmember:
Great titles. I consider to take them all on the list. But I would really like to have some saviors in black, Chinese, Japanese, Mexican... what ever the people are from. If you know some good titles about the poll idea, I 'll take them. Iknow 7/10 is a little harsh, but I wanted to avoid that people come around with 'Sacry Movie' or something like that.

The mere problem about these movies is, that there are often white people who have to be conviced about their neighbours rights. That's the main problem of racism itself. It's always a group of "supremacists". And the kings way is to convince, not beat the trash out of them. So they made movies about it.

One very good example is Hidden Figures, where the female main character is critizised of being to slow. So she explodes, telling him has to do the coffee for all of them, has long ways to the toilet, etc. So she gains the respect of the male main character and also the respect of her colleagues!

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member,
if you want me to link your profile at the options, you can give me your profile adress. But you don't have to, if you don't want that.

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member: Ok, one thing!

I wiped one movie off the list after seing it first time. It's 'Dangerous Minds'. That's because it is too much centered on the white teacher. It's more about a white teacher gaining a moral victory than telling a story of equality.

In this movie the teacher is in the focus. But there are no really changes outside the group of mixed ethnics - outside the classroom. It's just a story about how a white teachers civilized deprived teenagers. That feels so artificial. Nope!

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112.5K Points

3 months ago

Ready to go!