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57 Messages

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1.1K Points

Tue, Aug 9, 2022 11:02 PM

No Status

162

Production Accountant Credit

Production Accountants are Department Heads that oversee $100 Million or more in a season.  We even get on-screen credit as Production Accountant or Production Controller.  Why does IMDB throw them into "Series Additional Crew" with PA's and office staff?  Other department heads such as Art Director, Locations, Transportation or any other department heads are credited accordingly in IMDB to match their on-screen credits.  Production Accountants nationwide would very much appreciate if you would correct this issue.  You can check my last series "Rebel" for ABC or look up my IMDB Kathy Riley I (additional crew) and you will see what it looks like to have been in this business for 30+ years as a department head lumped in with Additional Crew.  United Talent Agency represents Directors of Photography, Assistant Directors, Production Designers, Costume Designers and they are looking to represent Production Accountants now as well.   

6 Messages

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162 Points

Il y a 4 y

The accounting department is a large department. Production Accounting teams are responsible for budgeting, money management and paying the entire cast and crew. I do believe we should be categorized as our own department.
Note: This comment was created from a merged conversation originally titled Accounting Department

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81.2K Points

For having worked in business and money departments for more than 30 years, please allow me to disagree: accounting has no impact whatsoever about the creative process of a film. My 2 cents.

Champion

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236.8K Points

As an independent filmmaker my two cents as well is that accounting is a large part of production, but indeed, it has barely anything to do with creative process. 

Still, very much a necessity and having separate professionals to do that is much better then going through the bills yourself while you can go and film smething... 

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72.5K Points

Well, the OP never said the accountants deal with the creative process of a film. She just stated it's a big department.
Also, IMDb has a separate section for the Transportation Department (https://help.imdb.com/article/contribution/filmography-credits/transportation-department/GKAQS95JUDN...#) and to the best of my knowledge (but I'm not in the industry) that's not an incredibly creative department either.

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81.2K Points

Precisely, I really do not see the point in having such a singularization!

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122 Points

I am an accountant in the film industry, and though some don't directly effect the creative process I'd argue that production accountants who do budgeting or assist producers in budgeting do effect the creative process directly as they determine how big a scene can be from that. IMDB credits/categories being based on the creative process seems idiotic, first of all. By your reasoning producers shouldn't have their own category as they hire and negotiate the deals with the creative people and only make creative decisions based on money (like, no, you can't explode an entire hospital for that scene just for the hell of it, not in the budget!) second we also easily fit under production management, why not add us to that existing category then along with the people we work closest with, UPM, production supervisors and the like?

Champion

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3.8K Messages

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236.8K Points

I should say that I really respect any profession in film industry regardless of how creative it gets: you can't do a movie alone or at least it will be extremely hard an painful. Each crew member provides something great for production. I think that combining accountant with production managers can be quite a good decision, but I wonder whether PMs and UPMs  have second thoughts about that... As far as I know both of those jobs require a producers guild membership, while I don't know whether having such is the norm for accountants as well... 

As for departments: IMDb in general is very slowly at exapnding the departments, as it requires a lot of internal workings. It is done quite slowly, but there are some proceedings in the area and the expansion has nothing to do with "creative decision" importance: it's just that grouping anything and then implementing it takes a lot of time. That and, guilds as well shape how some of the departments look and what they include. 

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81.2K Points

OK Nikolay, but there has been such an inflation over the credits in the past decades... In the 1930's-1950's, a film credit would consist of less that 10 cartons, i.e. about 40 names at the most. Still in the 1970's, a maximum of about 100 names were displayed. Now we are counting several hundreds, and final credits are rarely scrolling under 10'.
Sorry but this is utterly ridiculous: all of the names there, including accountants (and drivers !), cannot have the same involvements as the major functions (producing, writing, directing, acting, editing) that do make up a film.

There has always been drivers and accountants since movies were made, especially in the studio system in Hollywood. What kind of recognition does it bring tto have their names in the credits ? Does the fact of having their names displayed have made the films better?

My answer, after 50 years and more than 5000 films of viewing, is definitely: no. There are some good films being produced nowadays, as there have been since Griffith, Eisenstein, Epstein, Dreyer, etc.
Never forget that films are made for the public, not for the "makers".

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72.5K Points

There has always been drivers and accountants since movies were made, especially in the studio system in Hollywood. What kind of recognition does it bring tto [sic] have their names in the credits ? Does the fact of having their names displayed have made the films better?
Do you feel IMDb shouldn't list these on their site at all? And if you do, where would you draw the line?

Champion

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3.8K Messages

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236.8K Points

Standards in the industry changed for a reason and I believe that it was a bit unfair to not have people who honestly worked hard on the movie uncredited. Sometimes I feel like researching and adding more of such people to have their filmographies there, even with "(uncredited)". People should know that studio productions always required a lot of people and it's not a recent addition. 

And yes, IMDb should list everything from the credits, in my humble opinion. 

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81.2K Points

Marco: Good question!

I do not pretend to have the correct answer at once. The current IMDb policy is to rely solely on credits, regardless of the actual historical data, stemming from research (books, interviews, TV subjects, etc.), and I resent this.
I am also baffled that acountants and drivers would show (why not as it is "factual data"), when dubbers have been ignored since the beginning.
My personal approach would be to focus on the 5 main core functions (producing, scripting, directing, photographying, editing) without which a film cannot be, then adding the artistic creative functions (music, sound, designing, costumes, etc.), which  could be extended to the graphic (i.e. digital) image processing.
My 2 cents.

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81.2K Points

Nikolay: I am OK with IMDb relying mainly on credits, there is a rationale behind it, but, especially when it comes non explicit information e.g. "uncredited" or deleted scene, IMDb cannot be considered as a research source. It just shows the external side of a movie, and that's too bad.

Champion

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3.8K Messages

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236.8K Points

I am a longtime defender of including the international versions and subs into the credits, especially since ephemeral "English version" is okay, despite at times being little more then a dub itself, if not exactly that. 

As for deleted scenes and uncredited entries: I always loved those and they are really interesting to research at times, but that's just me and I am a lifelong movie buff with very specific interests. :) 

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186.4K Points

Well, for the sake of avoiding the IMDb "other crew" sections of too many large-scale productions from being cluttered with accountants, this idea probably has merit. Furthermore, it should be policy to create a new crew section whenever "enough" movies are being published with credits for production support departments staffed with over a dozen people having more than two occupational designations.

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153.1K Points

The accounting department is a large department.
by Jennifer Winter
Joined on June 13, 2018
https://getsatisfaction.com/imdb/people/jennifer_winter_g3hvevppq4m3y
- - -

on TCM now (June 20 2018 2:00 AM GS time)
An American in Paris  (1951)
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0043278/
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0043278/reference
Gene Kelly   ...  Jerry Mulligan
Leslie Caron ...  Lise Bouvier
Oscar Levant  ...  Adam Cook 

Box Office
Budget $2,723,903 (estimated) 
Gross United States $4,500,000 

Accounting Department ?? not listed
- - -

OK, how many people would decide to watch a movie or TV show
because some Accountant worked on the production
so they would look that up on IMDb and see what else that Accountant worked on

Accountants not listed on screen ?
How would IMDb find the list of Accountants
for 1930's, 1940's 1950's, 1960's, 1970's, 1980's ...

https://www.imdb.com/search/title?release_date=1930-01-01,2018-12-31
Most Popular Titles Released 1930  to 2018 
4,498,580 titles 
- - -


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accountant


6 Messages

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162 Points

Never forget that films are made for the public, not for the "makers". - Vincent Fournols
Yes, but IMDB and specifically, IMDB Pro are made for both. In fact, without knowing the exact stats, I am confident IMDB Pro is geared toward industry professionals. It is a widely used tool which professionals use to establish work history for potential crew as well as stages of development and budget amounts. Budgets - the item that accounting is greatly responsible for maintaining if not creating, Also, no we may not be part of the creative process, but accountants are an intricate part of the team. Accounting is one of the few departments which can also be considered as management, if not their own category. What about grip and electric, are they part of the creative process? Based on your way of thinking, there would be no independent department headers. The fact is, most of the crew are not considered "creative", but without them movie magic can't be made. 

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72.5K Points

My two cents: I feel IMDb should rely on the credits, but also on research, historical data and whatnot. But if someone is credited, I feel it should be listed on IMDb. (even if the person didn't do any work on it, therefore we have the attribute (credit only))

11 Messages

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200 Points

This issue has been raised again with IMDB as it is high time Accounting got their own department! 

6 Messages

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162 Points

@SamScowcroft​ 4 years since I posted. It was a battle then and its still a battle. It would be nice to be heard.

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200 Points

@jennifer_winter_g3hvevppq4m3y​ right!?!?! If we can get the new request out to as many in and out of our department maybe they will HAVE to listen..... you'd hope.....

https://community-imdb.sprinklr.com/conversations/data-issues-policy-discussions/production-accountant-credit/62f2e79ac5eeb86e2c3788e6

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70 Points

@Vincent_Fournols​ - There are many people in, and out, of production who believe Accountants have very little to do with the creative side of the production.  Indeed, there are many Accountants who do nothing more than bookkeeping on a project, and probably do not interact with the project's overall look.  However, the whole creative process, especially in lower budget project, hinders on the distribution of resources allocated by the budget.  Is an item to be handled by Locations, or by the Art Department?  Is an item Wardrobe, or Props?  Are there funds to shoot an additional day?  All of these questions are answered in the budget and cost reports, which are controlled by the accountants.  In my roll as a Production Accountant, I am often brought into creative meetings to discuss how we can best manage resources to maximize the vision of the Director.  In one case, at the film's presentation at Cannes, the Director spoke at a Q&A praising a creative decision which came from the Accounting Department as an alternative to dropping a scene altogether.  True, no one ever lost an Academy Award because they filled out a Purchase Order incorrectly, but, then again, the project would most likely never have turned out to the quality necessary to get the Academy Award if the accountant was not in the background maximizing resources to the benefit to the whole team.

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60 Points

@Vincent_Fournols​ To clarify: you've never worked or been involved in film or series production?

kathyriley

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1.1K Points

@Vincent_Fournols​ Thanks Peanutblitz...I was heading there myself.  When someone has experience working in production, they know that there are many parts to the production process.  Some of those "parts" are more "creative" than others; however, this doesn't make them any less necessary to the process.  Without ALL the departments, ESPECIALLY when it comes to the ones overseeing the "MONEY BUSINESS"...productions would come to a standstill or never get off the ground at all. The reason "Cast & Crew" are credited on productions is because they were part of the production process.  Otherwise, the credits would be much shorter and be called "Cast & Creative Only".  I hope I've cleared up what can only be explained as your obvious misconception regarding the importance of every person to the production process. 

kathyriley

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1.1K Points

@mintyoil45​ Love your answer, thanks!

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128 Points

@Vincent_Fournols​ I think you're missing something with your post.  On almost every show I work on, I am consistently consulted by show runners and producers as to what they can afford, what creative cuts they need to make, how much something is going to cost in order for them to make necessary changes to the scripts or decide what elements such as days, locations, stunt gags, inserts, background, picture cars, wardrobe, set dressing, props, SFX, 2nd Units etc. they can afford without compromising the creative integrity of the stories they want to tell.  At the end of the day, if that doesn't have a direct impact on the creative process, I don't know what does.  PS.  I also have writing and acting credits so I'm very aware of how what accountants do has a direct impact on the creative process.  The movie business is a BUSINESS first and foremost and we are the ones responsible for translating words on the pages of a script to numbers in the ledgers.  Additionally, for the last decade plus, our resumes have been vetted by potential employers against IMDb listings so credits matter more than they ever have.  I hope this illuminates why we're asking for this.

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78 Points

Il y a 2 m

I absolutely agree and support this request to add the category. 

-Regards,

-Sonia Y. Dawson (Production Accountant/1st. Asst. Accountant)

IMDB: https://www.imdb.me/SoniaYDawson

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356 Points

Il y a 2 m

I emailed IMDB this same questionlast year and they sent me a generic response saying how they are working on improvements everyday and to go to the community site and post about it!

Without us there wouldn’t be a film! Or maybe there would be but uncle John and Cousin Joan would be processing late payments (if that) while sitting in their backyard - we aren’t additional crew! We are CORE CREW! Needed! Hence why we should have our own title designation!!!

imdb.me/CelesteEscalera

(edited)

2 Messages

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86 Points

Il y a 2 m

Totally agree!

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228 Points

Il y a 2 m

Couldn't agree more. Imdb please adjust your settings to give us more than an "additional crew" credit. We deserve our own category. 

Chace Chatterton (1st Assistant Accountant)

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm8361235/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0 

(edited)

Employee

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281K Points

Il y a 1 m

Hi @kathyriley -

I have converted this request to an Idea thread within the community so other members can vote on the issue and provide IMDb staff with the visibility to track interest and demand.

Cheers!

kathyriley

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1.1K Points

@Michelle​ I will let my fellow production accountants know.  I really hope this is one step closer to change.  Thank you! 

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356 Points

@SamScowcroft​ I believe it’s just liking the original 

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200 Points

Thanks @Chescalera. I can see the like comments but not like the original. There is also an 'upvotes' thing that i can't work out as well. Will keep looking as this is definitely an issue they need to address!!! :)

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66 Points

@Michelle​ upvotes doesn’t seem to be working. I tried to vote! I definitely agree with Kathy’s post. IMDb is a great resource to see experience of crew member. It would be beneficial to see the whole department categorized together!

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62 Points

Absolutely agree, it is about time Accountants are recognised for the work we do - we are not miscellaneous.

kathyriley

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1.1K Points

@SamScowcroft​  Hopefully someone from IMDB is seeing the comments about upvotes not working and advise when it's fixed.  Thanks for speaking up for CHANGE!

kathyriley

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1.1K Points

@Rquigleysmith​ Thanks for supporting us!

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160 Points

@Michelle​ How do we Upvote this? There is no option.

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116 Points

@Michelle​ any chance you can fix the upvote or let us know how to do it? The IMDB community it is not very intuitive and users have to register again even when we are already logged on our own IMDB profile. We want to share this on other social media outlets TIA MG x

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356 Points

That’s a good idea! It took me forever to figure out that I had to create another account for this site. But it would be great to be able to share it.

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356 Points

@Michelle​ hi Michelle, upvotes isn’t working. Is there something special we have to do? Do we have to log in from computer? 
i hope the responses will be enough to encourage a change in title for us :-) since we can’t vote on it 

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356 Points

@kathyriley​ upvotes is boxes next to number right above the comments and Below the views count

its the same color as the background so it’s hard to see. It’s Click box left for up and right for down arrow (don’t clock down lol) 

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200 Points

Il y a 1 m

Absolutely!!! The accounts team/s are often the first ones in behind the producer (sometimes even before!) and the last ones out, even after delivery. We are a core team of the whole production, not some 'other department'. We deserve the recognition for the work we do at the very least by acknowledging that our department exists in and of itself! :)

Sam Scowcroft

Samantha Scowcroft - IMDb

kathyriley

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1.1K Points

@SamScowcroft​ Thanks for supporting us!

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60 Points

Totally agree. 
It’s not like we are miscellaneous to the production. 

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74 Points

Il y a 1 m

I completely agree. Accounts should have their own category, not be sat in misc at the end of the line. As an FC I'm the first on, last off of a production, working side by side with the producers on the daily.

Best,

Josh Nixon

IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm5404270/

kathyriley

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1.1K Points

@Jnixon​  Great points you raise, Josh!  Thanks.

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86 Points

Il y a 1 m

I agree. We deserve our own category. We have a credit on screen why not on IMDb. I don’t understand that we are recognized everywhere except on this website. 
IMDb please adjust your settings to give us credit. 

Christine Lyes (Production Accountant, Payroll Accountant)

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm9941068/

(edited)

kathyriley

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1.1K Points

@ChristineLyes​ Thanks for supporting us!

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60 Points

Il y a 1 m

Can't agree more, accounts are essential part of the production and deserve to be acknowledged.

Jakub Malar (Production Accountant/1st. Asst. Accountant)

IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm6480468/

kathyriley

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1.1K Points

@JakubMalar​ Thanks for supporting us!

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116 Points

Il y a 1 m

I couldn't agree more. I think IMDB should acknowledge us as an ACTIVE and essential part of the production and assign us a DEPARTMENT on the dropdown menu like Art or Costume 

kathyriley

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1.1K Points

@MGonzalez​ Thanks for supporting us!

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62 Points

Il y a 1 m

I absolutely agree!  There is not a single production without an accounts team so it's only fair we get our own category.

kathyriley

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1.1K Points

@diane_harvie​ Thanks for supporting us!

kathyriley

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1.1K Points

Il y a 1 m

380 views!  I tried to click on the "upvotes", doesn't work.  Who can vote on this idea?  Could this have something to do with why we aren't able to upvote?  Thanks.

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130 Points

Il y a 1 m

Yes! Everything goes through the Accounts Department, anything decided from cast to crew to special effects, the cost of everything you see and hear on screen crosses the desks (paper or digitally) of the Accounts team. Accountants service every department of the production, we’re not just 9-5’ers shuffling paper and poking our calculators. 

We deserve the recognition accorded to other HoDs.

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm1010633/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1

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70 Points

Il y a 1 m

I totally agree with this.