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bradley_kent
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443 Messages

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12.9K Points

Fri, Jan 4, 2019 2:52 AM

Genre mismanagement

Poor genre judgements

Once again, I find myself entering the new year with great trepidation about how genre decisions are made.  Since IMDb's guidelines apparently DO NOT agree with other reliable sources (in this case, Variety), is seems that genre guidelines MUST be redefined OR the genre list manager must have his/her eyes opened.

Here are some examples of rejections that absolutely baffle me:

181231-151312-0320002018-12-31 15:13:12The Great Northfield Minnesota Raid (1972)
Keywords -  16 items added, 3 items corrected
Genres -  1 item added
181231-041102-8870002018-12-31 04:11:02The Souler Opposite (1998)
Keywords -  35 items added, 1 item deleted
Genres -  1 item added
181231-011727-0230002018-12-31 01:17:27Grind (1997)
Keywords -  13 items added, 2 items deleted
Genres -  1 item added
181231-010445-0740002018-12-31 01:04:45The Last Time I Committed Suicide (1997)
Keywords -  27 items added, 3 items corrected, 1 item deleted
Genres -  1 item added
181230-015623-7820002018-12-30 01:56:23Zero Effect (1998)
Keywords -  23 items added, 3 items deleted
Genres -  1 item added
181230-013133-1920002018-12-30 01:31:33Walking Tall (1973)
Keywords -  15 items added, 8 items corrected, 3 items deleted
Genres -  1 item added
181229-211526-6200002018-12-29 21:15:26It's My Party (1996)
Keywords -  30 items added, 1 item corrected, 1 item deleted
Genres -  2 items added
181229-190900-3610002018-12-29 19:09:00Bad Girls (1994)
Keywords -  19 items added, 4 items corrected, 1 item deleted
Genres -  1 item added

Some sort of logical explanation (if possible), would be appreciated.

Question

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Updated 

a year ago

2

18

Responses

Vincent_Fournols

2.4K Messages

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81.1K Points

2 years ago

So IMDb does not agree with Variety in terms of genre definition. And I do not agree with IMDb for defining in what a "film noir" is.

But this is IMDb's site, complying with IMDb rules and definitions.


In your list, we cannot see why it baffles you as nobody can check your submissions and know what the rejected genre were.

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Will

Employee

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3.6K Messages

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76.7K Points

2 years ago

Hi Bradley Kent,

Do those submitted genres apply to the IMDb genre definitions? Have you seen the titles or is the genre submission based on the attached keyword data that you are auditing? If you have any links from Variety that can help us verify those submissions it would be much appreciated.

Regards,
Will

7

bradley_kent

443 Messages

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12.9K Points

They "comply" with IMDb definitions.  I have seen some of the titles, and other are largely unseen films having relatively little data on INDb..  For example, with The Great Northfield Minnesota Raid, I was trying to add Drama.  Now, it only has Western.  For The Souler Opposite, I was trying to add Romance.  This film is about a standup comic looking for love,  ("Souler" as in "soulmate"!) I can provide explanations for all, but IMDb should not just (apparently) arbitrarily reject genre submissions "on a whim" for tiltes unfamiliar OR unseen by staffers.

Last year, I just quit submitting Genres because IMDb was not accepting accurate and appropriate ones.  Perhaps I need to revert to that, and just let IMDb's Genres be non-inclusive and inaccurate.

Relatedly, any title with the incorrect "biopic" keyword should, instead, have Biography as a Genre or "fictional-biography" as a keyword.  Any title with "love- story" as a keyword should have Romance s a genre.  There are  many situations like this.  The keyword "biopic" gets deleted as a keyword, but Biography is not added as a Genre, i.d. Walking Tall.

These are not my decisions, but decisions made my IMDb long ago (in some cases, years ago) Perhaps staff turnover is one of the reasons why these decisions are not enforced.

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2 years ago

bradley_kent

443 Messages

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12.9K Points

Don't get me wrong.  I get some Genre submissions accepted and deleted, but the ones that are rejected are baffling.  There seem to be some unwritten criteria that only the keyword list manager(s) subjectively knows.

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2 years ago

bradley_kent

443 Messages

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12.9K Points

If there is a list of sacrosanct titles for which no new genres will be accepted, that list should be made knowable to the submitter so that we do not waste our time.

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2 years ago

bradley_kent

443 Messages

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12.9K Points

By the way, I have seen ALL of these eight titles.  Two -- The Great Northfield Minnesota Raid and It's My Party -- I have seen twice!

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2 years ago

marco

1.8K Messages

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61.6K Points

21 hours ago you said "I have seen some of the titles" but 12 hours ago you said "I have seen ALL of these eight titles". Which of these statements is true?

(By the way, I would advise against adding a genre if you haven't seen a particular title.)

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2 years ago

bradley_kent

443 Messages

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12.9K Points

The latter is true.  The previous statement was made without looking at the entire list.  Yes, I have seen all eight.  I was trying to correct the previous statement.

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2 years ago

jeorj_euler

7.2K Messages

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170.2K Points

Right. Usually a newer statement overrides an older statement.

Like

2 years ago

Will

Employee

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3.6K Messages

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76.7K Points

2 years ago

Hi Bradley Kent,

As explained previously the existence of a keyword on a title doesn't necessarily mean that an associated genre should be applied to the title as the title may still not meet the genre guidelines. Have you got any links to help us verify these genre submissions? We'll be happy to take a look.

Regards,
Will

0

bradley_kent

443 Messages

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12.9K Points

2 years ago

Of course, a title should meet IMDb's genre guidelines. (All the eight titles DO, by the way.) But... " the existence of a keyword on a title doesn't necessarily mean that an associated genre should be applied to the title"?  Long ago, it was IMDb policy that certain keywords should be superseded by a particular genre, "i.e, the keyword "love-story" for the genre Romance, "life-story" or "biopic" for the genre Biography OR, in some specific cases, the keyword "fictional-biography" etc.  Are these previous standards no longer applicable?  It so, thousands (millions) of titles need their genres audited and probably changed.

Also, as has previously been discussed, in addition to my own viewings, I can substantiate these genres with Variety reviews. But "links" to those reviews are extremely expensive.  If IMDb has paid for that "links" archive with Variety, IMDb could probably access that service.  I cannot afford it.  I only have actual paper clippings.

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bradley_kent

443 Messages

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12.9K Points

2 years ago

So...

The Great Northfield Minnesota Raid should have BOTH Western and Drama as genres,  Look at the thousands of Westerns that ALSO have Drama as a genre, like High Noon (1952), Shane (1953), The Searchers (1956), and Jesse Hames films like Jesse James (1939) thru The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford  (2007).

One could logically argue, in fact, that ALMOST ALL titles should have Drama and/or Comedy as  genres.  Listen to the ancient Greeks, where it all began.

To not add Drama as a genre for The Great Northfield Minnesota Raid makes no sense at all.

(More to come...)

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bradley_kent

443 Messages

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12.9K Points

2 years ago

So...

The Souler Opposite (which I have also seen) should have both Comedy and Romance as genres. It is about a stand-up comic looking for his soulmate.  The Variety review (October 10, 1997) identified it as a "romantic comedy" "closer to a cloying 'thirthsomething' episode than to vintage Woody Allen."  The comic is "looking for the woman of his dreams" and has endless 'Was it good for you?' pillow talk."  It is about "the fatal fear of commitment," has "a feminist," a "'When Harry Met Sally' courtship," and is "a West Coast 'Manhattan'," with "overall optimism,"  That sure sounds like a Romance and Comedy to me -- and it is!

(More to come...)

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bradley_kent

443 Messages

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12.9K Points

2 years ago

So...

 Grind, which I have also seen, is, according to its April 3, 1986 Variety review, about ""stifling relationships" in which the characters "Eddie and Janey become romantically entangled," has a brother-brother-brother's wife "love triangle,"  that causes the character Terry "to painfully confront the dalliance under his nose."  All romances, as any experienced, non-naive person knows, DO NOT ALWAYS end happily!

(More to come...)

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bradley_kent

443 Messages

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12.9K Points

2 years ago

So...

The Last Time I Committed Suicide, which I have also seen, centers on Neal Cassady and his Beat Generation life.  As verified in the January 18, 1997 Variety review, It has TWO Romance storylines:  (1) Cassady has "a steady girlfriend" and "The two seem happy together, yet for some reason ... Joan tries to take her own life one day." Their "subsequently happy reunion is interrupted," but "Joan's 'return;' stirs her boyfriend's deep longing," and this reunion results in the "chance at long-term happiness seems shot." (2) a "Hollywood flashback" about "Neal's earlier romance with [a] precocious schoolgirl," whose "disapproving Mother ends that highly sexed involvement."  That's a "double-header" that makes this film ALSO a Romance.

(More to come...)

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bradley_kent

443 Messages

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12.9K Points

2 years ago

So...

Zero Effect, which I have also seen, has, as the January 6, 1998 Variety review admits, "a roller-coaster of ideas and tones" and is "idiosyncratic," but it is still also a Romance.  The review compares it to Grosse Point Blank, and notes "(Director Lawrence) Kasdan is most intrigued with the relationship" between the two lead characters (a detective and a female paramedic)."  "Both parties are presenting false fronts, so the attraction is skewed.  They offer versions of themselves that are designed to please.  Yet there is some internal truth they cannot disguise, which allows the dating period to continue and evolve."  (That sounds like a lot of romantic relationships to me!) The film, the review says,  has "a romantic slight-of-hand."

(More to come...)

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bradley_kent

443 Messages

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12.9K Points

2 years ago

So...

That Walking Tall (which I have also seen) should have Biography as a genre is the simplest call of all. It is, quite simply, a biography of Sheriff Buford Pusser.  The February 20, 1973 Variety review's first sentence says that it is "Based on the real-life tragedy and punishment visited upon a progressiveTennessee country sheriff."  Easy call.

(More to come...)

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