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Mecki
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217 Messages

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5.5K Points

Sat, Sep 14, 2019 3:36 PM

Delete Credit

The person was listed on IMDb as cinematographer.
In the credits of the German original version, he is listed as "Kamera", so I proposed to delete his entry as cinematographer and add him to the camera department.
He was then added to the camera department, but retained as a cinematographer.

I filed again to delete the cinematographer, but it was rejected.
190913-212349-478000
Would you please look again?

Question

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Updated 

a year ago

5

12

Responses

gromit82

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254.2K Points

a year ago

Mecki: For clarity, did the person have another cinematographer or director of photography outranking him in the credits?

If not, is it possible that this person did the work of a cinematographer notwithstanding that his German-language title was "Kamera"?

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Mecki

217 Messages

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5.5K Points

a year ago

This person is the only one to be credited as "Kamera". Another person is listed as "Schnitt", whom I added to film editing. There are no other credits or persons related to camera/editing/cinematography.

I don't know if he did the work of a cinematographer or a cameraman. I simply intended to assign the word "Kamera" to the English word that comes closest.
I agree he could have done the work of a cinematographer, but I just don't know.

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eboy

1.8K Messages

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62.3K Points

a year ago

If the credit is already in the Camera Department, I guess it would be easier to just correct ”cinematographer” to ”camera”? No need to delete anything.

It’s true that IMDb prefers to have ”camera”, ”camera operator” etc type of credits in the Camera Department, even when they (in some cases) could actually refer to the only DoP/cinematographer in the production.

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Mecki

217 Messages

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5.5K Points

a year ago

Will you please take a look?
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0028446/fullcredits?ref_=tt_cl_sm#cast

Harry Stradling Sr. at the moment is listed as cinematographer and as camera and electrical department. I think one of them should be deleted.

2

phil_g

224 Messages

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11.4K Points

Will you please take a look?
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0028446/fullcredits?ref_=tt_cl_sm#cast
The cinematographer listing is one of only 3 crew credits on that page that I think might actually be listed correctly.  I have to wonder what the data editors were thinking when they accepted the rest, when IMDb policy is for all occupations and attributes to be listed in lowercase only and in English (give or take a few exceptions which don't apply in this case).

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a year ago

phil_g

224 Messages

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11.4K Points

I have a little time with nothing better to do, so here's some suggested updates to fix the credits for this title. Please bear in mind that I'm not familiar with this film and haven't checked the on-screen credits for it. The following is based purely on the current listings and assuming that the German text there accurately reflects what's seen on-screen.

  • Director E.W. Emo should be listed without any attributes.
  • Writer Fritz Koselka should have the attribute "(script)", or possibly the 'default' "(written by)".
  • Robert Leistenschneider should be listed as a production manager, not a producer; and his occupation should be listed in English.
  • Uncredited composer Robert Stolz, I believe is probably listed correctly.
  • Cinematographer Harry Stradling Sr, I believe is listed correctly. On-screen credits for cinematographers very often use a wide variety of different terms to describe them. As gromit82 noted above, if the credits don't list anyone else as a cinematographer, a variation of "camera" often covers that role.
  • Editor Lisbeth Neumann should be listed without any attributes.
  • Production designer Julius von Borsody should have the (as...) attribute only; the German "(Bauten)" should be removed.
  • Sound department Herbert Janeczka should be listed with his occupation in English: "sound" (unless a more specific role is known? sound designer? sound engineer?).
  • Camera department Harry Stradling Sr, should be listed as "camera operator" if he belongs in this department at all (see above).
  • Lyricist Rudolph Bertram... I'm unsure about this one, given that he is credited for two songs in the Soundtrack section. If that's all he did, then he isn't eligible for a music department credit as well. But if he's credited on-screen separately from the two songs, then he can be listed here, but with the occupation "lyricist" not "lyrics" (person not the task - last line of the guide).
  • Music supervisor Yvonne Stolz, at first glance looks ok, but given that only a few credits are listed, I wonder if her role was included in the on-screen credits or if she should actually be listed with "(uncredited)"

(Just to be clear, although crew jobs should always be listed in English, that doesn't apply to cast: character names for the cast should be in the original language, so no changes needed there).

I'm not submitting any of these changes, because I can't be sure of their accuracy without seeing the actual on-screen credits.

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a year ago

Mecki

217 Messages

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5.5K Points

a year ago

"... although crew jobs should always be listed in English, that doesn't apply to cast: character names for the cast should be in the original language..."

Sorry, I did it wrong. I understood, everything should be listed exactly as on-screen in the original version. I see now, I was wrong.

I will check the crew jobs and reply again later.

1

phil_g

224 Messages

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11.4K Points

The guidelines aren't always as clear as they could be. The general rule is for everything to be listed exactly as it is on screen, unless it's covered by a different rule or any exceptions apply. And there are a lot of exceptions.

Don't let it put you off, you'll get used to all of IMDb's oddities with experience.

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a year ago

Peter_pbn

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a year ago

For reference, Oliver Heidelbach's Online Film Dictionary indicates that Kamera may be equivalent to cinematography.

https://www.ohei2.de/ofd/moviedict_e....

6

nikolay_yeriomin

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Peter, great thanks for the link, seems like a great resource. 

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a year ago

0

eboy

1.8K Messages

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62.3K Points

Like I said earlier, if the actual on-screen credit is ”camera”, then it still probably goes under Camera Department. Point is how the person is credited. But I guess IMDb staff could give the ”official” reply.

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a year ago

eboy

1.8K Messages

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62.3K Points

Edit: One example is the older documentary ”Around the World with Ridgway” (1978), where Roger Deakins is the only camera on board (so essentially he was the DoP/cinematographer). But since he’s credited as ”cameraman”, the credit goes under Camera Department.

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a year ago

phil_g

224 Messages

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11.4K Points

Eboy, it's been discussed many times (both here and on the old contributors help boards) but I don't think I've ever seen a clear policy statement confirming the right approach; it generally seems to be decided case-by-case.

From the attributes field browser for cinematographers we can see that there are thousands of cinematographers listed with attributes such as 'lighting cameraman', 'cameraman', 'camera' and similar. While that doesn't prove that those listings are correct, it does keep the possibility open.

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a year ago

Peter_pbn

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Eboy, when it comes to translation I think you can consider context, and the most literal translation is not always the best one. If the credit says "Bild", should we write "picture"?

The reason I refer to Oliver's site is that he is an IMDb contributor and former member of staff, and he made the site for IMDb purposes and with the help of other contributors. He is also German.

But of course IMDb can make a ruling, and standards may change over time.

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a year ago

eboy

1.8K Messages

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62.3K Points

Fair enough. It’s true that sometimes it can be difficult to translate these various job titles to English, especially cinematographer/camera-related credits. And it’s also true that there are these various attributes and case-by-case scenarios.

I guess I was thinking more of a English language credits, hence the Deakins example. But I guess ”camera operator” is clearly more like a Camera department credit, when simply ”camera” is more open to interpretation.

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a year ago

Mecki

217 Messages

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5.5K Points

a year ago

Many thanks for the support from all of you. I love you.

The following persons are credited in the film and had been altered by me (wrongly so). I agree/suggest to correct them the following way:

Director: E.W. Emo (no attribute)
Writer: Fritz Koselka (script)
Production Manager: Robert Leistenschneider (no attribute)
Cinematographer: Harry Stradling Sr. (camera)
Editor: Lisbeth Neumann (no attribute)
Production Design: Julius von Borsody (as Julius v. Borsody)
Sound Department: Herbert Janeczka (sound)
Camera Department: (delete)

The following are not credited in the film, are not recognized by me and had not been altered by me:

Uncredited composer: Robert Stolz (He is listed in the German data base "filmportal.de" https://www.filmportal.de/film/wer-zuletzt-kuesst_abd24456b04e4ceca1c0d77c9caf96e7 as actor ["Dirigent"])
Lyricist: Rudolph Bertram (I know nothing about him)
Music Supervisor: Yvonne Stolz (I know nothing about her)

1

phil_g

224 Messages

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11.4K Points

Looks good to me.
The following are not credited in the film...
In these cases, I would generally trust the previous contributor's claim that these people were involved in some way, but make sure they're marked as (uncredited) since you know that their names don't appear on-screen.

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a year ago

Mecki

217 Messages

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5.5K Points

a year ago

I agree in marking them as uncredited.
Before submitting my new corrections I think I wait a little while in case someone will post another opinion.

0

Will

Employee

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3.6K Messages

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76.7K Points

a year ago

All looks good, please go ahead.

Thanks,
Will

0

Mecki

217 Messages

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5.5K Points

a year ago

Thank you for your approval. I now submitted most of the above.

However, with one person I had doubts:
  • Lyricist Rudolph Bertram... I'm unsure about this one, given that he is credited for two songs in the Soundtrack section. If that's all he did, then he isn't eligible for a music department credit as well. But if he's credited on-screen separately from the two songs, then he can be listed here, but with the occupation "lyricist" not "lyrics" (person not the task - last line of theguide).
Rudolph Bertram is not credited on-screen. Should he be removed then?

1

phil_g

224 Messages

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11.4K Points

This is one of those odd cases where it could probably go either way - either mark as (uncredited) or remove entirely, and I'm not sure which would be better.  Hopefully someone else will have some advice to offer here.

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a year ago

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